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 Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:53 AM |
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I do talk a good fight
 
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Agent K (7/2/2008)
[quote]it is a tad upsetting to find out that while I'm struggling by adventuring and trading lammies for my pocket change there are people who are essentially selling OOC items/services at huuuuuugely inflated IC prices and making more money than entire colonies/factions etc.
I feel the same about real life -- here I am, 38 years old, & I've worked hard (sometimes) in a variety of jobs over the past couple of decades for what often seems like little more than pocket change (my missus and I only own one house and one car between us!), but some git can come along & start a business or play the stock market & make a small fortune, often at hugely inflated prices. Some of them make more money than my entire street! It just doesn't seem fair.
I guess it is at least realistic, though.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 1:05 AM |
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Squire
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| Only if you measure success on acquisition of IC money, it is not the only way though. For many years my character had nothing to do with money, it was a thing that corrupted any that sought it, his measure of success had nothing to do with money for him it was pursuit of becoming a knight of his ancestor. For that to happen he had to have equipment, armour, weapons, all of which cost ooc cash, now he is a Paladin of his faith and has position and influence (an ic advantage). Thus I have spent ooc resources for a massive ic advantage AND still don't have IC cash. There are many paths too success, some are quick, some are slow. If everyone thought it was all about the money then there would be 200 shoe shine boys shivving each other up for poaching customers (although that would be quite cool to see). Edit: This was in response to Agent K's last post.
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 1:52 AM |
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Heroic Knight
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In order for you to gain the paladinship it probably took time and effort to stay alive whilst smiting the enemies of your church. You probably would have been upset if you later found out that other people got their paladinship because they brought the candles and stayed in the church all event socialising.
I have no qualms whatsoever with people spending time and energy on their character to play the part they have chosen at all.
A real world example is the current 'sub-prime mortgage' scandal where a few made huge gains while everyone else paid for their profits. Currently there are no penalties (that I am aware of in a system) applied for such trading or exploitation of an LRP system. As I said earlier, the peasants are happy (even when starving to death or killed by other forms of neglect apparently) and the economies of the various worlds are blissfully unaware of what is actually going on creating a system where this IC/OOC grey area can thrive.
Many arguments here are supporting the 'join this type of system because it's cool and you're just afraid/not willing to put in the extra effort' argument, but I have two points that should be relevant.
1) I'm a student so therefore don't have the extra resources at the moment.
2) I'm temporarily disabled and the moments I have in my life not filled with pain or painkillers, I would prefer to spend enjoying time with my wife, not planning how to get rich at the next event.
So yes I do get a little upset when I go to an event to enjoy the time I do have there only to find out 'I'm not making the effort to really get ahead at that event'. My concern is that other people who really aren't able to make these 'extra efforts' are left behind to fend for themselves using what is available to them in the basic rulebooks.
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Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
DP Roberts: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:31 AM |
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Squire
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| I've written this post about 10 times trying to find the right words and still I'm having trouble. To answer your questions: Yes I survived a long time, smiting enemies for the first couple of years, then about 4 years out whilst my body threw a wobbler and bits were replaced. Then without great physical effort on my part things fell into place and I became head of a knightly order. No - I would have no problem if another character effectively bought the candles and made paladin that way, OOC or IC. IC I might not send that character into battle (depends on what they can do). I really wouldn't get upset that you can't put in "extra effort" because you are physically/financially unable to at this time, it doesn't make you a failure. The IC cash that the cake seller and bob the chef make has to be spent on something, so why not the sword that you have finely crafted with your "basic rules" skills. (if they have a ton of cash then they'll probably even pay you more). But if our cake seller has bought a sword with their OOC derived IC gold, has not the sword seller also benifitted from the same OOC resource (in that the cake seller could not have afforded his goods if they hadn't baked cakes).
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:11 AM |
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Heroic Knight
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When you buy anything from someone who is an OOC trader then you are buying something that has had some form of safety checks along the way and you can be fairly sure that what you are buying is 'what it says on the tin'. If it isn't you are protected by the Laws Of The Land and there are various avenues to take if the matter is not settled by the trader to the customers satisfaction.
When you purchase anything as your character that has an OOC presence (I'm talking consumables only to save confusion) then because technically you haven't actually purchased anything, if you have a problem with the goods you are meant to sort it out yourself without any OOC backup. If the matter isn't sorted out to the customers satisfaction then the only recourse is for that person to never 'buy' anything from that vendor again.
I still find it interesting that people expect OOC traders to go through training, H&S checks and regular certifications as well as pay the event organiser several times more than punters for the privilege of selling their wares. Whereas if someone is 'selling' those same goods from an IC establishment then everyone seems happy to waiver those same checks and rights.
In another example. Because of the various overheads involved in running a 'burger van', it is possible for that business to make a loss at an event. The staff usually don't take as much of a role outside of the business as they're not there for the game but because they are staff and they are restricted in where they are allowed to set up.
For the IC traders, they already have purchased their standard cost ticket, can set up with much more freedom, don't have the same cost worries as OOC traders (no wages for a start) and when they pack up for the day/break they go out and get to play a character in the interim. Also with 'OOC donations' made to the IC kitchens they are recouping at least some of their initial outlay.
Matt P has stated that given the choice between IC traders and OOC traders he would pick IC traders every time. An interesting point in that with an event where everything is IC there are no guarantees whatsoever of buying what you think you're buying. There are no checks, no liabilities and no recourse if something goes badly wrong. Personally I would prefer if LRPers themselves set up businesses and provided these foods/drinks etc within the law. The atmosphere would be more appropriate and as well as charging OOC cash for their goods, an IC charge for those goods could also be included in the price. Then the emphasis would be removed from having to charge large amounts of IC cash just to justify keeping the business open.
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Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
DP Roberts: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:39 AM |
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Champion
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Agent K (7/2/2008)
Personally I would prefer if LRPers themselves set up businesses and provided these foods/drinks etc within the law.
That statement gives the impression that the IC traders are currently operating illegally.
They're not - they are already operating within the law.
The atmosphere would be more appropriate and as well as charging OOC cash for their goods, an IC charge for those goods could also be included in the price. Then the emphasis would be removed from having to charge large amounts of IC cash just to justify keeping the business open.
IC traders do not base their IC prices on what their OOC costs are, but on their IC costs and what the IC market is prepared to pay. The idea that, if they also charged OOC money, their IC prices would automatically come down is nonsense.
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"Fantasy is the artificial sweetener upon the poisoned cake of materialism." - R. J. Stewart
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:56 AM |
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Wag
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Agent K (7/2/2008)
time, but they get to roleplay with the customers who come to them so there is a balance there) to running these sorts of businesses in terms of running costs then that sort of business can run rampant and the sort of profits made can lead to player jealousy.
Unfortunately I think you're missing a critical points here in your idea that there are no expenses involved and thus no play balance. The point is that there would be no play balance even if there were IC expenses levied by PD. Lets have a look at why...
Jade Lotus sell a meal for 10 Marks lets say (I have no idea what they actually charge). It is virtually impossible for me to justify IC costs for the ingredients which are greater than 1 Pf. If I really push it, if I really piled it on, I could maybe get to 2 or 3Pf. In a surreal world of crazyness where I just clean made up some utterly out of kilter figures and cited play balance I could push it to 5Pf. There is no way, in the Jade Lotus example, that I can ever create a cost that has any connection to the game world reality at all, that would impact on their takings in any meaningful sense.
The reason for this is that Jade Lotus have no competition. If there were four Kamakuran restaurants at Maelstrom the price they could charge for a meal would plummet to the bottom level at which it was still fun for them to do it, perhaps a mark. But there isn't and so the restaurant can charge what the market will stand because there is no competition. The closest real world analogue is football, in which the very best footballers have almost no competition because of their skill levels and because only the very best will do. As a consequence footballers are paid a fortune, because that's what the market will stand.
The idea that the game could be balanced if PD "charged for ingredients" is very similar to the idea that footballers wages could be made more socially equitable by increasing the taxation on trainers. I don't believe there is any credible level of taxation that could be put on trainers that would impact on the net profitability of being a premier division footballer. Unless you charged a million pounds tax of course, but that wouldn't be so great for all the people who wear trainers but don't play football professionally...
I personally ran a liquor business at Maelstrom and asked Matt how much the basic ingredients would cost and duly paid the small change into the office when I arrived onsite.
That is very very strange. I must have been having a brain fart that day. PD's stock answer to all these questions (and we've been asked many times) is that there is no IC charge for the paper/ingredients/whatever because although IC there is a charge this is assumed to be covered by the profits your business makes outside of the main events and that in effect the main events are simply a cash cow whose profitability is directly equal to takings because all of your costs have been paid for by trading outside of the event.
Anyway back to the point, I LRP to relax and have fun but it is a tad upsetting to find out that while I'm struggling by adventuring and trading lammies for my pocket change there are people who are essentially selling OOC items/services at huuuuuugely inflated IC prices and making more money than entire colonies/factions etc.
The prices aren't huuuuuugely inflated, they're the market rate. I'm sorry but that's a fact. You just don't like the fact that being an adventurer/trader is extremely low demand and being the best chef in the Known World is in high demand. Your complaint basically boils down to the idea that being a door-to-door salesman selling cleaner and dishcloths pays worse than being a top fight chef. I think most top fight chefs would look at you a bit funny.
A few years ago I went to Odyssey as part of a small group of mercenaries. We were a very small group in a very small event that was built around political battles fought out in an arena. It was a great event but everyone was playing a politico and there weren't enough warriors for them to fight their battles with. The net result was that warriors were in massively short supply. And we were playing the only three mercenaries in the game. Our price started out at 10 denarii a fight (a significant sum) and quickly spiralled upwards. By hiring myself out for fights for the week I easily made the Odyssey equivalent of what Jade Lotus earns. And all by dint of being in demand in the game. (I'd have earned a lot less if there'd been a roman restaurant on site, but I'd have been much happier and I'd have been able to spend my fortune).
While this seems to be ok for some people, it makes me wonder what the point is in being someone who spends their xp/DT on being a craftsperson when someone who doesn't have to invest any in game skills or training can turn up to an event and make a fortune.
The bit that really weirds me out, the bit you seem to be overwhelmingly refusing to accept the existence of, is because it's fun? As far as I was aware people haven't played roleplaying games to collect XP for 20 years, didn't that kind of go out with Ad&d first edition? I'm not trying to be funny but I thought it was a universally acknowledged concept for roleplaying that the point was to have fun doing what you did.
If I played Maelstrom I would consider playing an architect or a shipwright because I would find that more fun than doing what the Jade Lotus do. Less profitable IC, but more fun OOC. So my option is better than theirs because I enjoy it more. Best of all, they personally make my option even better, because I get to go and splash my hard earned cash in a beautiful Kamakuran restaurant, which makes my game even more fun.
It seems that you find the presence of people earning more money than you makes your game less fun. I'm afraid I find that a bit sad. It wouldn't bother me particularly at all, just spur me on to try harder, but the presence of people prepared to shine my shoes for a few coins would make my game much more fun.
The systems out there used to have an economic system however while it is possible for someone to make such fortunes without any IC work but providing the resources for that fortune out of IC 'thin air' then it is clearly breaking the 'fairness' factor.
I think your conclusion is wrong for a number of reasons.
1) That they make huge sums of money, vastly in excess of what the lammy traders make. This simply isn't true, Jade Lotus the very best and most visible of all the IC service providers makes more money than your average lammy trader. The very best lammy traders also make huge sums of money, they're just significantly less visible.
2) That fairness is predicated on equality, that somehow the game has to all balance out for it to be fair. LRPs are not games in the sense where winning is important, it's the striving for victory that is fun, it's being in a world where all this is possible that's enjoyable.
3) That everyone can't do what they do. They can. You can polish people's shoes and make lammies if you want and the OOC costs and resources needed are negligible. So it is fair in the sense that anyone can do this. You just don't want to so you're ignoring this simple fact.
Rich's example is a good one, he spent £200 on costume for a warrior and most probably didn't make anywhere near the money he did when he spent £60 on shoe-shine materials. Where are the incentives to not get involved as part of the service industry? How can it become possible to make those kinds of fortunes within the game system without resorting to spending OOC cash on top of everything else (petrol/transport, costume, food/drink as well as the booking for the event).
I think a more interesting question for Rich is which concept he enjoyed more and why? The point of the game isn't to be rich, the point is to have fun getting rich. Once you actually are rich, there isn't really much to do anymore, either get richer or piss it up the wall somehow. There are plenty of incentives not to get involved "I can't be bothered with the hassle", "I don't like cooking", "I'd have more fun playing a politico/trader/mugger" are all fine incentives.
I could earn vastly more money if I packed in my stupid job right now and went to work for a large company designing and building SQL Server databases. I don't do this because my job is fun. Doing my job is a lot more enjoyable than working for some big computer company, so I'd rather attempt to get rich running an LRP company than working for the man. It doesn't bother me particularly that the guy working for the man earns more than me, cuz I have an ace job. It's more fun....
To be told that to succeed in a system you have to spend more money on top of what you already paid to get there is a little like having a water fountain in the middle of the sahara desert that's coin operated.
I realize we haven't moved your opinion an inch, but I have to say you do appear to be profoundly selective of the facts in pursuit of your conclusions in the most perverse ways and this is simply the latest example. Rich's armour cost vastly more than his shoe-shine service but you are clearly determined to ignore the issue that armour for fighters costs real world money (why oh why doesn't the organisation simply give you armour points relevant to your skill and you wear any phys-rep you have if you have one?).
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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| Posted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:13 AM |
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Wag
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Agent K (7/2/2008)
When you buy anything from someone who is an OOC trader then you are buying something that has had some form of safety checks along the way and you can be fairly sure that what you are buying is 'what it says on the tin'. If it isn't you are protected by the Laws Of The Land and there are various avenues to take if the matter is not settled by the trader to the customers satisfaction.
And yet we repeatedly, event after event after event, have no complaints of any kind brought to our attention about the quality of food and drink being served IC at our events. It's almost as if this level of protection is not needed...
In fact if there were complaints we would investigate them and either issue some salutary warnings to the player base or else close the trader down. We have the power to do that in response to complaints in the same way H&S inspectors do, so I think your points are just plain wrong. We wouldn't tolerate a situation we felt was genuinely dangerous to our players or one where they were being abused in some way.
When you purchase anything as your character that has an OOC presence (I'm talking consumables only to save confusion) then because technically you haven't actually purchased anything, if you have a problem with the goods you are meant to sort it out yourself without any OOC backup. If the matter isn't sorted out to the customers satisfaction then the only recourse is for that person to never 'buy' anything from that vendor again.
Or to complain to the organizer.
Or to get a mob of lads together and go down and kill them.
Neither of which appear to be general options available in real life without tremendous cost associated with them.
I still find it interesting that people expect OOC traders to go through training, H&S checks and regular certifications as well as pay the event organiser several times more than punters for the privilege of selling their wares. Whereas if someone is 'selling' those same goods from an IC establishment then everyone seems happy to waiver those same checks and rights.
The OOC trader is charging OOC money. It's a real trade. The IC trader is giving his food away for free. In return for the sheer unmitigated coolness of this, you give him some monopoly money. If I check his food and demand H&S then I have to do the same for everyone who is cooking any food on site that isn't being eaten by them personally. No more pooling your money to buy food as a group at the event anymore... not without H&S certificates.
In another example. Because of the various overheads involved in running a 'burger van', it is possible for that business to make a loss at an event. The staff usually don't take as much of a role outside of the business as they're not there for the game but because they are staff and they are restricted in where they are allowed to set up.
The costs are wages, materials and costs for the pitch. Of these the cost of the materials is less significant for food traders than the wages and possibly equivalent to the cost of the pitch. If they were elite Egon Ronay style food caterers the cost of the materials would become microscopic in comparison to the cost of their wages and the costs of their pitch. If I were charging for a pich in the royal box at Ascott, I'd charge more than I do for a pitch at Maelstrom...
Pitch prices and wages exist IC. It's perfectly possible for IC traders to make a loss.
However I see that you are arguing that they compete with OOC traders and that's unfair on the OOC traders. Since the OOC traders and don't complain to me about it, I think this point is really a bit moot frankly. Sure life ain't fair on them, the guys in the field have a better product that costs less. Suck it up. The guys in the IC field take home a few hundred Kyat or whatever, the OOC caterers on the other hand take home a very large block of money. Caterers make good money at events, I know because they pay me to be there, not the other way around....
Each party gets what they want, the Jade Lotus get a pile of monopoly money and a world of win and the near universal admiration of the player base for the sheer coolness of what they do. The OOC traders get a pile of notes about six inches deep and a fair degree of admiration from the player base (if only our OOC caterers were as popular as Jade Lotus!!). Each seems pretty happy with it. Plus the Kings Banquet guys do some playing as well, when they finally get to close their stall.
There are no checks, no liabilities and no recourse if something goes badly wrong. It's a lovely line, if only it weren't so palpably wrong...
Personally I would prefer if LRPers themselves set up businesses and provided these foods/drinks etc within the law. I believe (IANAL) that British contract law requires the exchange of money for a contract to be legally binding. Since money does not change hands I think there is a good argument that it is not possible for IC traders to operate with the remit of British law. Where's Flannel when you need him....
The atmosphere would be more appropriate and as well as charging OOC cash for their goods, an IC charge for those goods could also be included in the price.
I am at a loss to see how the atmosphere of the game would be improved by having to drop OOC to pay real world money for what was previously a purely IC transaction. Clearly it would for you, can I suggest to you that if you look at the responses here you can see that the same is not true for your fellow LRPers...
Then the emphasis would be removed from having to charge large amounts of IC cash just to justify keeping the business open.
They charge that price because it's what the market stands. It's nothing to do with justifying the OOC costs as far as I can see.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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