|
|
 Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:30 AM |
|
|
Overlord
 
Group: Administrators
Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:40 PM
Posts: 1,595,
Visits: 4,256
|
|
[admin hat on]
We're off topic folks. Whilst the discussion is reasonable, if you wish to go over the matter of IC/OOC action crossover, start another thread. The OP posted in relation to IC and OOC trading of the same commodities. I know I'm making a fine distinction and the two can be linked, but most of this ground has been trodden in one thread that became unwieldy.
[/admin]
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:42 AM |
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:45 PM
Posts: 195,
Visits: 224
|
|
Fair enough Allen.  To link this back in then, I feel that IC and OOC traders offer two different services. An OOC trader offers goods with a certain guarantee of quality, in exchange for real money. They offer them to keep, and are protected by the laws of the land, as well as common sense, to prevent things like theft, vandalism, sabotage, murder. This allows them to provide a necessary service (feed, water, shelter and supply LRPers) in a sustainable and (we hope) profitable way. An IC trader offers superfluous goods with no guarantee of quality beyond "reasonable provision for safety" and within the limits of the event rules. If they vanished, no essential service would be withdrawn. They are taking a risk, and should be vulnerable to sabotage, theft, murder, vandalism, monopolisation, competition, price wars and all that jazz. They are providing a prop consistent with their IC background, and benefiting by adding to the event in that way. If they were playing a robber, they could get money by robbing well. A healer by healing well. A musician by playing well. An entertainer by actually being funny. They are a trader - it's an option that may cost more cash to represent than being funny might - but if that's their choice to earn an income (and they are not protected unduly from risk, just as an entertainer could have their tongue cut out IC they shoult be able to lose their goods) then they should be equally allowed to pursue it. And if people are prepared to pay IC money for an IC edible prop and then chose to eat that prop OOC then that is their call. 
_____________________________
Maelstrom - Carl Whitesnake
Scavenger LRP - Organiser
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:03 PM |
|
|
Prodigal
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:06 PM
Posts: 796,
Visits: 1,062
|
|
Comments removed as off topic...
_____________________________________________________It is not a competition. It is a web forum.
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:17 PM |
|
|
Prodigal
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:36 AM
Posts: 861,
Visits: 2,456
|
|
Surely the point of LRPing in the first place is to get away from the 'real world' and attempt to play in a world where everyone is created equal Is it?
------ <insert really amusing sig here>
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:32 PM |
|
|
Champion
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:09 PM
Posts: 389,
Visits: 2,379
|
|
Nath (7/1/2008)
Surely the point of LRPing in the first place is to get away from the 'real world' and attempt to play in a world where everyone is created equal Is it? i dont want equal, equal is dull
www.mandalastudios.co.uk www.kangena.co.uk RL - Mark (Coventry)
CP - Urtsi (Ael) [Ex Head Weapons Checker/ Ref]
Mandala - Wookie (Ref/ Props)
PD - Wookie (Ref)
GF - Organiser
Dark Secrets - Philip Stanley (Tech Assistant)
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:46 PM |
|
|
Wag
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 11:24 PM
Posts: 2,003,
Visits: 8,528
|
|
Alastair (7/1/2008)
An IC trader offers superfluous goods with no guarantee of quality beyond "reasonable provision for safety" and within the limits of the event rules. If they vanished, no essential service would be withdrawn. They are taking a risk, and should be vulnerable to sabotage, theft, murder, vandalism, monopolisation, competition, price wars and all that jazz. They are providing a prop consistent with their IC background, and benefiting by adding to the event in that way.
Bingo - so long as the props are provided for IC use then they suffer IC liability. You might do well by providing selling lots of beads for IC use for IC money - I might do well by selling lots of IC inflammatory tracts for IC money - or someone else might come along and take those beads/inflammatory tracts off us and sell them instead or dispose of them.
So long as the distinction between IC trader and OOC trader is totally clear (i.e. there's no blur or a sense that you'll be denounced OOC for interfering with IC trade) then all people are doing is creating opportunities which anyone can exploit (like turning up telling fortunes - if it turns out to a lucrative money spinner, I'd very much hope that someone would turn up to discuss Insurance). One of the points people were responding to is that you can exploit an OOC resource for IC cash (not a problem) but not open it up for equivalent exploitation by other characters (a problem).
There's another point which depends totally upon the type of game. If you're in a narrativist game, you'll be expected to make IC decisions based on an OOC conception of what "enhances the game/improves the story". I.e. you'll be expected not to cut the tongue out of the entertainer if he is judged as "enhancing the game/improving the story", regardless of whether he is making an economic killing/your character would do well form it. Narrativist games aren't usually driven by economics, so it's not surprising that they might not view it as particularly significant.
So long as everyone is clear about which game they are in, that shouldn't be a problem - but I do notice people often seem to explain the violation of the economic rules of some non-narrativist system on the grounds that they don't care about money, even if the upshot is that they are making _too much_. It's a bit like saying "it's ok for me to violate the skill system, because I'm not a munchkin" - it's fairly glaringly narrativist ("Why are you talking about _means_? I'm telling you that my _ends_ are pure - why are we still discussing it? You're not some sort of rules-lawyer, are you?").
In a Narrativist game, you probably would be expected to hold back from interfering with an IC trader - at the very least, you might be expected to make an OOC case for why doing so 'improved the story' - but that doesn't matter since IC cash isn't generally significant in Narrativist games.
In a Player-led game, you'd be expected to do whatever it took to advance your character's goals - IC traders would operate under no distinct OOC protection whatsoever - so an IC service brought into the game by one player could be coopted by any other player.
In both formats IC services for OOC investment works - problems only arise if there's blur between the two. I don't think you can half and half it - I don't think this is one of those areas where you can let people play as narrativists in a player-lead game or engage in player-lead play in a narrativist game.
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:46 PM |
|
|
Champion
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 5:18 PM
Posts: 270,
Visits: 1,132
|
|
| People trading put in a huge amount of effort and time being OOC traders. They enhance my personal experience of LRP. My advice is if you think it's unfair, become an IC trader. I'm quite happy for people to profit out of me paying IC for drink, massage, dancing girls or any other Conanesk service you can think of. I love waking up at a LARP game in the morning, hungover, wondering what I spent all my IC cash on the night before. As Sturrock said...it's realistic. If no-one was there seliing the services you'd miss this incredible injection of realism. Matt J
If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I'd fart!
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 2:45 PM |
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Today @ 2:00 AM
Posts: 227,
Visits: 595
|
|
So long as IC traders are allowed to sell OOC goods and services for IC cash without there being any restrictions on the amounts involved then ANY system can be abused to make those traders rich IC without effectively doing IC work. My point is that if you create in a system a warrior (let's call him/her Devros) who wants to hack and slash their way through the hoards of monsters for a weekend. By the end of the weekend Devros has lived up their class and slain many enemies, raided evil temples and destroyed the evil lich king that was threatening the event and everyone in it. Devros looks at the loot they've attained (some cash and a magic sword) and it pales in comparison to Bob the chef who's managed to earn from other people ten times the loot Devros has and through talking to people, spent some of that cash on a suit of magic armour, a magic shield and a couple of rings that make Bob immune to poisons etc.
Devros has had to engage in roleplay ALL weekend, risk their characters life, make friends and alliances and Bob sat in his tent all weekend after spending OOC cash earned outside of the system making essentially OOC food and just charging a small IC fortune for it.
If Devros was to be killed at any point during the event then the player would have to start again from scratch. Dig out some new kit, learn the skills of the new character and make some IC friends all over again. Bob on the other hand just creates Bob II and continues making cash hand over fist in their 'IC eatery'. If Devros created Devros II and had all the same equipment as Devros then they would be accused of cheating but because Bob is 'enhancing the event' it's fine.
At what point does it become acceptable for anyone to use OOC advantages for MASSIVE IC gains?
Ed: The wife has just pointed out something from the Maelstrom system. We loved the roleplay and the costume etc. so please don't take this as an attack on that system. She played a Master Shipwright and spent her downtime working and building ships, due to the (realistic) IC costs involved, a skilled professional didn't make as much in a downtime as these IC traders made through OOC actions. Sometimes the amount made by IC traders in one day was more than she made for her whole downtime. This in my opinion is a game-breaking scenario and ensures a 2-tier system where people willing to 'buy' their IC advantages with OOC cash are always going to be better off than those willing to attempt to just survive within the system and it's IC economy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
DP Roberts: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:04 PM |
|
|
Champion
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:27 PM
Posts: 297,
Visits: 771
|
|
Bob's massive IC wealth doesn't appear out of nowhere - other characters choose to give it to him. If Devros's ultimate aim is to gain treasure, then clearly he'd be much better off robbing Bob - if he wants to go off fighting monsters for other reasons then that too is his choice (if there's nothing to do except kill monsters then it's no longer a matter of choice).
Restricting the choices that characters can make generally leads to a worse game, not a better one.
____________________
"Fantasy is the artificial sweetener upon the poisoned cake of materialism." - R. J. Stewart
|
|
|
|
| Posted Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:08 PM |
|
|
Wag
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 11:24 PM
Posts: 2,003,
Visits: 8,528
|
|
Agent K (7/1/2008)
So long as IC traders are allowed to sell OOC goods and services for IC cash without there being any restrictions on the amounts involved then ANY system can be abused to make those traders rich IC without effectively doing IC work.
I'm not quite sure how it would involve "doing no IC work". Chef isn't such a good example because presumably they'll be IC cooking stuff up a lot. A clearer example of what you're trying to push might be someone who swings by Aldi and picks up 10 quids worth of those nice cheap foreign cakes and turns up IC to sell them on a blanket for a few pfeck a cake.
I don't see that as problematic - regardless of the cost or number of cakes - so long as Devros can come along and take the cakes and IC money without feeling OOC restrained. If I were preaching for alms on the basis of a substantial OOC investment in time coming up with a very coherent IC theology I don't think anyone would feel that it would be inappropriate to interfere with my efforts IC - I'm running a fairly substantial IC risk of having my OOC investment wasted if someone bonks me on the head and cuts my tongue out (or merely refuses me permission to preach in a public area).
If the Chef/cake-seller realises that he's found an IC gold mine and immediately realises that this means he is going to have to give up some percentage of it to prevent someone stealing or trashing his gold mine, that's not a problem (either he has to give Devros 20% of the proceeding to prevent other well-armed people like Devros coming and taking 100% or he just has to pay someone else to protect him from Devros). Historically, this is the main source of money for Warriors living in agricultural countries - that's the point of the nobility - you give them 40% and they see to it that someone doesn't come and take all of it away from you.
This can only fall down if it's not clear that Devros can treat Chef as dealing in IC currency. If Devros notes that he has to fight all weekend for 1 Schilling but that Chef makes 100 Schillings a day and yet has no Insurance against disruption/theft it's fairly obvious how things ought to work out. Problems only arise if Devros feels like he doesn't have OOC permission to interfere with Chef - or that he does have permission but only in certain ways which (i) aren't really clear (at which point, how many Schillings of IC profit is worth potential OOC aggro over miscommunication?) or (ii) aren't functionally the same (i.e. yes of course you can rob me and take the IC money physreps, but you can't take any/all of the IC physreps I have hear for sale and IC disposal - you'll have to get your own cake physreps).
Insofar as it's | | | |