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Devil's Advocate
      
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Heroic Knight
      
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I am going to concede a lack of interest and bow out at this point. Exchange of views are potentially interesting, debating schools I can do without.
PD Olrich Von Skorzezny. HavocstanFire Support - because the Marquis of Queensbury never had to go door to door in dispersed tactical formation, with multiple engagement zones and the threat of recurring lateral ambushes.
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Knight
      
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Marios (7/18/2006) You don't think this might be overtrivialising the situation a tad? If everyone just sat down, had a cup of tea and was a bit more reasonable then, sometime during the third round of cribbage, all the fundamental disagreements would just evaporate ...
Oh definitely glad you were incisive enough to point it out.Feel free use an asinine examples where it wouldn’t work rather than consider where it would. Did you even try to read to whole of the reply?
The UN seems to have become a mystical body through some holistic/synergetic effect sharing none of the of flaws and foibles of it's constituent parts. Somehow the UN is more decent and honest and true and humanitarian than the sum of it's parts, in the same way that international law is inherently more moral than national law (I guess if you value national law over international you must be a racist?).
Interesting point of view – Mythical certainly, some praise it and others demonise it. I guess the reality is somewhere in the middle in that you can have some of the flaws and foibles and still be better than the sum of the parts. Do you think the UN has achieved this?
Is it? Like declaring war against Germany for invading Belgium?
Another good example of where it doesn’t work. Why don’t you try looking at the situation under discussion?
Israel is racist, if you define racist as discriminating on grounds race.
Well done! It’s a nice simple definition. I‘m confused because you always insist on going with a nice simple statement and then picking people up when they do the same. You demonstrate you can do the subtle thinking with Kazakh. I accept that this is rather coloured by the view that it’s pathetic not to discriminate against a minority or is it only okay if you use race?
The EU really "never made things worse"?
The answer to that rhetorical question would be no. Again, I know it’s controversial but try looking at the situation under discussion. If you really need it spelled out simpler for you I apologise for being unclear.
Feel free to answer in your own imitable style it always says so much more about you than the topic under discussion.
badmoonridsing (7/18/2006) I am going to concede a lack of interest and bow out at this point. Exchange of views are potentially interesting, debating schools I can do without.
I’m sorry to hear that, to be fair isn’t it just the School of Marios? I've always found it to be lowest common denominator debating.
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and Minimeister
      
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Archangel (7/17/2006)
Flannel (7/17/2006) Personally I'd rather the Israely Governmentwere painted as the war mongering, racist maniacs they really are.War-mongering racist maniacs? I’m interested to know why Israel is racist. It allows people of all races and religions to live within its borders as equal citizens. Something no Muslim country does. It does not persecute any particular people. It merely responds to terrorist attacks from other countries who have admitted to trying to wipe it off the map. There are these people called "Palestinians". Sucks to be them. I don't think that being more popular than the Muslim states is a good excuse for destroying the infrastructure of an already crippled state. <snip> Israel has time and again put up with terrorist attacks, suicide bombings and kidnaps most of which don’t get reported over here. The only ones that get on English news are the ones where Israel responds too. And it makes up for the ones we don't hear about with a horrific human rights record. I don't know, I don't think escalation will lead to resolution, or if you prefer it another way, I'm not convinced that two wrongs will make a right. If the Lebanese government won't/can’t do anything about Hezbollah then should Israel just sit there and take it? How is Hezbollah “allegedly a terrorist organization? What they do is terrorism…
If they are not a terrorist organization, then the fact that they hold 23 out of 128 seats in the Lebanese government, makes this an act of war on Lebanon’s part.
So which is it? Is it a terrorist attack or an act of war? Its got to be one of them.
Sorry? Are we talking about what may be a part of the Lebanese government attacking Israel or the response of the Israeli government? So far as I can see it's largely a matter of scale with said scale favouring the Israelis. Should Irael, in fact, let countries like Iran just "push them into the sea"?
Nope, but I don't see Iran using its army on Israel, I see Israel using its army on Lebanon. <snip> As for blowing up the UN base, you’re quite right. Chances are it probably wasn't a target. Tragic accidents like that happen all the time during military campaigns. I give you Americas famous friendly fire incidents as an example. No one on English TV mentions the fact that Hezbollah are targeting their rockets indiscriminately. So because Hezbollah, an admitted terrorist group that don't enjoy majority support in Lebanon (according to your statement), does something Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it likes? I disagree.
<snip>This report from CNN even tells you how Israel drops leaflets first warning people of their targets and telling them to stay away
Wonderful! Considerate of them. I only hope that the people living there have access to people who can read, the war that has been more or less ongoing since 1987 may have affected the chances of people being able to read these leaflets. http://www.ghazi.de/educat.html
Hezbollah on the other hand drops rockets on civilian population centers and everyone defends them. In case any of you had forgotten it was hezbollah that where the agressors.
Who's defending Hezbollah? They're quite clearly dangerous terrorist loonies. It's all the poor bastards who are being killed by the Israelis through no fault of their own (except being illiterate, or being unlucky) that I feel the need to speak out for.
I have several friends who have moved over to Israel and who I’m still in contact with. One of whom is currently serving in the IDF. So I get most my info straight from the horse’s mouth. People over there can't understand why no one helps them. It seems to them that all the international communtiy does is sit back and shake its head and mutter dissaprovingly whenever Israel does anything to defend it's self.
Maybe its because they're getting quite a lot of help from the US? In terms of all that nice equipment they're blowing Lebanon up with. I think you'll find that a couple of nice beaches and fruit growing capacity don't buy a lot of tanks, fighter aircraft, shells, etc. (At least they don't seem to be spending on such in the Bahamas...) There's also "defending yourself" and committing an act of war. Let's say the SNP went rogue and started launching missiles at England and then English tanks start shelling "infrastructure" in Scotland. Is there any question that England has started a war with Scotland? No. Do most of the Scottish people doing the dying support the terrorists? No. Same situation with Lebanon. It's not "self-defence" it's murder.
It’s all very well for the EU to tut and say “ooh no you shouldn’t be doing that Mr Olmert” but do they suggest anything to actually solve the problem?
Hmm... by perhaps engaging in dialogue and making life better for the people around them? Versus, say, ignoring the problem and crushing opposition through force. No, I'm sure no one's suggested that... wait...
It’s not just Israel either.
Do we ever get reports of the way Christians and Jews are treated in Muslim countries?
In Iran they have imposed exactly the same sanctions on "the people of the book" as Hitler did to non-Christians pre WW2.
And yet its is only when any of these people try to defend themselves that then it gets on the news.
Obviously there's something about that part of the world that encourages bastardry on a grand scale. However, just because you live next to bad people, doesn't mean that you're right to be bad yourself. Are you seriously suggesting that I should consider Israel and Iran as being at the same level?
There is only overconfidence and terror.
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Overlord
      
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Flannel (7/19/2006)Infact if there is a Mod reading this can you kindly take out all this irrelevant IRA bollocks and move it elsewhere so that Marios can continue with his School boy debating techniques and this thread can return to what it was originally discussing. There is always a mod reading these threads. I'll leave things for now unless I receive a complaint through the correct channel. However, I would say gentlemen, do try to stick to the topic - which was the BBC's coverage. I realise with a topic like this, all sorts of tangents can feel justified, but one man's justified tangent, is another's derailment.
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Heroic Knight
      
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coffmeister (7/20/2006) Maybe its because they're getting quite a lot of help from the US? In terms of all that nice equipment they're blowing Lebanon up with. I think you'll find that a couple of nice beaches and fruit growing capacity don't buy a lot of tanks, fighter aircraft, shells, etc. (At least they don't seem to be spending on such in the Bahamas...)You'd think that, but I couldn't possibly comment about Israeli Munitions Industries (IMI) being a major arms producing company. I also couldn't point out that they produce their own line of tanks, bespoke to the Israeli government because they are uniquely different to other 4th generation MBTs: Merkhava 5, I believe we're on. Israel makes it own stuff... they'd be mad not to, surrounded as they are by hostile states. They also sell to other people, including the UK: the rotters even put in a gratuitously cheap bid on a contract to try to drive a rival munition out of the market.
Dave 2 / Man in Blue LT - Artfiel Macenion Duvall, Knight of Celestial
EOS - Weeping Boar, War Sayer of the Mystwalker Tribe Maelstrom - Tal Rufen, Quicksilver Trading Riftworld - Cpl Caplin San Angelo, 48th Assault Recon
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and Minimeister
      
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Man in Blue (7/21/2006)
coffmeister (7/20/2006) Maybe its because they're getting quite a lot of help from the US? In <snip>You'd think that, but I couldn't possibly comment about Israeli Munitions Industries (IMI) being a major arms producing company. I also couldn't point out that they produce their own line of tanks, bespoke to the Israeli government because they are uniquely different to other 4th generation MBTs: Merkhava 5, I believe we're on. Israel makes it own stuff... they'd be mad not to, surrounded as they are by hostile states. They also sell to other people, including the UK: the rotters even put in a gratuitously cheap bid on a contract to try to drive a rival munition out of the market. Indeed, making weapons is a profitable business, I'm surprised you didn't mention the Uzi but hey. Nonetheless I think you'll find that they still import a lot more weapons than makes "sense" from an economic point of view. (Obviously it makes a lot of sense being surrounded by all the mad Arabs.)
There is only overconfidence and terror.
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Devil's Advocate
      
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