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Heroic Knight
      
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Totally answering the question at the start of the thread........
I have only ever played PD and started this year and I play a fallen eidelon, as only this appealed to me and not initially for combat reasons.
Saturday night on the town is for dolling on the pretty dress, getting immaculate hair and acting like a perfect lady (well, untill I hit the vino....
Come the event, I can break the normal behaviors expected of female/professional/mum/nice person and GO NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IC of course.
I own armour and weapons and the number increases per event I love combat and find its a whole lot cheaper than therapy.
I do not consider myself to be unfeminine and can understand while females may like the more decorative skills and very elegant clothes but this matches the charature they play. My kit is good and I like the whole dress standard which is applied on differing levels but is still a high standard.
Give me what I want and maybe no one gets hurt
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Wag
      
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Sikorski (6/24/2008) This is eight or nine pages thus farsingling out women (again) I find it alienating; 'what do you creatures with front bumps want from our world?' I hadn't considered I was part of a hive mind that wanted anything perculiar to my gender from live roleplaying
I think your problem is with the women who claim Victim status for 'women as a whole' (the "Women!" topic wasn't initiated by a man) - I'm not sure it's fair to blame the men whose only sin is being a little too ready to join a moral sounding chorus. It's not their fault if moral-sounding positions are often contradictory!
Marios
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Champion
      
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nesciomancer (6/24/2008)
However, I was recently going back over my memory of a group discussion I had at the last event, which lasted a couple of hours. It suddenly occurred to me that there were over ten people in the room, and only two of us were female. OC, this is something I'd tend to pick up on automatically- IC, it wasn't relevant to the conversation we were having, and I was busy trying to think about something complicated, so I didn't notice. OC, I find that kind of cool- I don't mind the fact that the gender balance was skewed, and it was sort of cool to be in a setting where gender felt so invisible (at least to me, for all I know the male characters in the room were treating me completely differently from how they would have treated an equivalent male character). I'm not saying that this is something I'd want with every character I play- sometimes it's nice to play a character who's very self-consciously feminine. But as a default state, that sort of internal gender blindness is kind of refreshing in larp, at least from my perspective.
I`d concur, and in my experience this is quite rare, because women tend to make men very aware of the fact that they`re not speaking/dealing with other men, by a myriad of reprimanding expressions, from slight frowns to outloud indignation, when they do treat them as such, or use words and expressions that are too 'laddy', unless you found an extremely gender neutral topic and use only words that women would find appropriate, in which case you`d already be very aware. The company of women can be very stimulating in many ways, but constantly having to treat them as something special can be very off putting, too. silverdreamdancer (6/24/2008)
Actually that's a good point, not wanting to start a riot (And possibly derailing the thread) about being PC but... LARP (and perhapse RP in general) seems abnormally slanted in favour of white Europeans, while gender mix is improving, I don't believe the racial mix is. When I go onto a university campus in most places I see a very mixed bag of skin tones. When I come to almost any LARP I am confronted with a much more limited selection even in progressive LARPs like Maelstrom. Personally I blame D&D and it's crude racial shortcuts for this (Drow are black and therefore evil leaps to mind) and I suspect puts some people off playing the tabletops which in turn lead to recruitment into LARP (LT due to drawing on D&D heavily also seems to suffer from this). Are these points valid or have I just been wandering around with my eyes closed? Ten to fifteen years ago I`d have offered for consideration that women and ethnic minorities are far too busy being taken seriously to engage in silly activities like LRP. Especially for women that is less true today. Most immigrants I try to explain LRP to still think it`s an extremely silly and un-adult way to spend one`s leisure time, but so do most natives. It is a simple fact however, that 'generic fantasy' isn`t generic at all, it is based on Northwestern European mythology. As such, it resonates in the Nordic Germanic and Celtic soul, and less so in others. (Slavic fantasy, for instance, isn`t considered generic in these parts, even though, IIRC, Slavic people outnumber Germanic people.) I think it`s fair to say that the slant in favour of 'white' Europeans is actually quite normal, in this part of the world. In the Ukraine they play Slavic LRP, in Japan they play Japanese LRP. It would also be kinda hard to set too divergent a culture in the European landscape. And even if an African participant in a NW European event could suspend his disbelieve far enough to accept that a grazy meadow is a sandy part of the Sahara, or a stretch of neatly planted timber trees is the deep end of the jungle, I`m afraid he`d still find it jarring that so many 'natives' are being played by 'white' people with next to no instinctive connection with the setting - even if they are highly interested and inspired. As an aside, I read in an article a year or so back, that non-European immigrants visit the country side far less often than indigenous people. Apart from the obvious - no ancestral connection to the landscape and no family to visit in the more remote backwaters - the article suggested that the main reason for this is that those immigrants mostly come from developing nations were the countryside is regarded as backward, and the city as the place to be. If this is indeed true, I suspect there will be less of an inclination to visit cultural roots in more natural surroundings. As to gender preferences: tastes, preferences and capabilities of men have a wider spread than those of women, so if one would ever strike gold in the search of 'what women want' and change the setup of systems and events accordingly, I suspect the gender ratio would change significantly, as most men will simply never like LRP, and even if they did, they would all go to different systems catering to their specific tastes. At the same time - and maybe not unrelated to the previous - men are the more adventurous of the two recognized sexes and I fear that if you do find 'what women want' it would pretty much be in the line of 'a home, a family, social security and gameshows with a sassy host'. And although I can imagine Matt Pennington as a sassy host - no idea what he looks like, but he has the social demeanour - and as such the formula might be more than economically viable, giving the masses it would appeal to, I don`t think I`d attend. And I doubt if many women who are playing now would find it very exciting. So I`m back to what I`ve always said, that LRP is basically a boys` game and that anybody who appreciates it as such is more than welcome, and that those that don`t would be wasting their time with it.
But I still think that mortality rates say more about how people actually play than the way they set up their characters. Of course, the first thing a potential player will see, even before attending, is the way characters can be set up, and as such it may draw more players if you make that part more appealing, but it`s a rather shallow attempt if you intend to keep them. New players (as in 'virgin' LRPers) trickle into the hobby drawn by word-of-mouth, which, in the context of this thread, is a good thing. As discussed in the 'Future of UK LRP' thread, the best way to draw new players is to put up a simple system with a simple setting, offering catering and entertainment and doing away with as much hassle (from accumulating kit to traveling to the site) as possible. Which is not bad in itself, but while this significantly lowers the threshold, I suspect it does so primarily for men. (With simple setting I mean something that most people can immediately relate to - unless you want to appeal to another niche market. How many interesting female archetypes pop into your mind when you try to think of such a setting? I mean archetypes you can put a name to, like Morgaine le Faye or Queen Boedicca, the only two I can think of at the top of my hat. Well, I can think of more, but even though spending your days in a convent writing mystic poetry sounds very interesting to me, I don`t think it would work at an event.) Then again, more players equals more word-of-mouth, so eventualy the ratio would normalize again, I suppose. And for what it`s worth: twice as many girls as boys study jewelry making as a trade IRL.
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- - mostly crewing at the moment
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Wag
      
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Matt Pennington (6/24/2008) As for being part of a hive mind, I'm afraid I do think your choices are influenced by your gender and I do think you are unaware of it.
Sikorski (6/24/2008) Lol, oh you do, do you? *chuckles* I think I know me better than anyone else and I think I know what makes me tick
*sigh* I'm really not sure if you're baiting me because it's funny (and I accept it is funny) or whether I'm really just not explaining this at all well. So I'll give it one last try and then shut up.
As human beings we all experience desires and dislikes for different things. We find things some enjoyable and some things distasteful. So for instance, I like LRP, I dislike football. We might hypothesize that I have developed these choices because I am essentially a bookish nerd who was useless at sports at school. Possibly it's because I am genetically predisposed to enjoy LRP but not football, my father hates football, my mother adores it, maybe I have his genes. Am I conscious of these reasons? No - when I am LRPing I don't think "Yay this is fun, I can feel it in the genes I got from my father" or "This feels pleasurable because it replays enjoyable sensations ingrained in my brain from my earliest experiences".
Of course these explanations are just crazy, but my point is that I'm hard pressed to say why I like LRP at all, unless I explain the enjoyment in totally circular ways in terms of other things I enjoy. I like LRP because it's sociable, imaginative, cerebral and I like these things because.... because... I just like them. Or I can define it in circular ways that redefine the word "enjoy" - I enjoy LRP because it brings me a sense of accomplishment and excitement, I get adrenalin rushes at the big moments and a buzz out of it. Neither of these explain fundamentally why it is that I find the activity of LRP pleasurable. At no point in this process am I conscious of why I enjoy LRP, I can't *consciously* relate it to any factor about myself, I'm not aware of the basis for my enjoyment.
Some times we are able to "step outside ourselves" or work with other people to try to objectively analyse the sources or reasons for our enjoyment of activities. Sex, which is the example I've used twice now is the clearest example I can think of, of this phenomena. I am attracted to women but I have no sense of the reason why this is. I am most emphatically not conscious of it being because I am male in anyway. And yet statistically if we analyse men as a category we find that the overwhelming majority of them are sexually attracted to women. Not all, maybe 10% aren't but enough to be almost certain that this is statistically significant and that there is a direct link between being male and being attracted to women. Enough to suppose that the reason that I am attracted to women is purely because I am a bloke.
It's this "external" analysis that allows me to suppose that the reason that I like women is because I'm a man. But it's only in looking at the factors that I have in common with many other men and seeing the same patterns over and over that reveals to me that this happens because I'm a man, I'm not capable of deducing that through consideration only of myself as an individual.
If you are able to actually "know" yourself in this way, then I think (and the little I've read on the idea of consciousness and what it is) suggests that you are a very unique person, because I cannot relate to this ability to be able to infer why you enjoy things without looking at other people and considering what you do or don't have in common with them. Certainly I would scorn the idea that I knew myself better than anyone else knows me, of course I know what I like better than anyone else does, but I have no conception of why I like these things, until I discuss them with other people and only by collating and comparing our experiences can I build a common picture with them of what causes me and people like me to enjoy or not enjoy LRP.
You seem to be scoffing at this, so maybe I'm explaining it very badly, maybe it appears so patronizing that I can't get past the implied insult that we "the group" can have a greater insight into an individuals personality than the individual does, but I honestly cannot comprehend any way in which I could begin to experience the reasons for my enjoying or not enjoying things. The whole notion seems as alien to me as being able to work out how I think or why I think. Possibly this just makes me an alien. Either way, that's my last best shot at trying to explain this. I really do think it's very relevant to this thread, especially given the number of posts of people saying "I like X, but it's not because I am a man/woman" in answer to which all I can think is "But how would you know this?".
Why not? this surprises me, as I would have thought most people considered why they do what they do or feel what they feel.
Ok, I'll try again. I know I'll regret this.
If I go without food for several hours (I do this a lot), I get a growing painful sensation in my stomach and what I can best describe as a mental urging to eat food. I can usually ignore this for a while, but it tends to get worse. The pain comes and goes but the urging tends to linger around in my head unless I'm focussed on something important in which case I can ignore it. Anecdotally we call it being "hungry" and it's very common, pretty much all human beings experience it.
Ignore the pain part, the mental urge to eat alone is fascinating by itself. Where does that come from? Is it genetic, are we born with this mental urging to eat when the pain sensation arrives? Is it conditional? Baby cries when he feels hungry, parents force food on baby, baby eats, pain goes way, associative links form - eating food removes pain, leading to mental conditioning, Pavlovian dog style? I can talk to other people, we can theorize, I can consider it intellectually by myself, we can try experiments. What I can't do is just sit down and analyse this feeling, this urge and work out *why* I am feeling the urge. I am not conscious of the basis that causes that urge to arise within me. I may have studied enough biology to be able to say things like "blood sugar levels", "glands in the body release hormones that trigger mental activity in the brain" but I'm not consciously aware of these processes in anyway, I can't feel them, only the results of them and since I can't isolate aspects of myself that are distinct from myself I can't identify which aspects of myself cause these sensations.
In short, simply by considering myself I have no idea at all why I feel this urge to eat food. But the moment I look around me and talk to other people I discover that every other human being feels the urge to eat food after a few hours without it. So we as a "group" can then suppose that in fact it's not because I am a unique snowdrop but actually I just feel this urge because I am a human being. Looking at animals we note that they all engage in this process of periodic consumption of food and that leads us to suspect that in fact it's not because I'm human but instead because I'm an animal and not a plant or mineral.
Imagine the sentence "I enjoy eating food especially if I've gone a few hours without, but it's because of the unique individual that I am, not because of the fact that I am human being and an animal, that's got nothing to do with it." I think most of us would accept that that is a fairly ridiculous claim. But if we're not consciously aware of the reasons why we want to have sex with some humans but not others, why we want to eat at some times but not others then how can we possibly be aware of the reasons why we enjoy some LRP and not others? And if we accept that being male has an statistical measurable biological influence on what gender you will be attracted to, if we accept that being human contains an implicit biological expectation that you will experience things like hunger and find eating food enjoyable, doesn't that suggest that being human, or male or female or any of a thousand other considerations may have an influence on more complex and subtle emotional responses like what kind of LRP we like and that we won't be aware of these considerations until we try to look at ourselves as a group and compare and contrast those experiences.
But in comparison not in isolation, the minute you get into analysing one group and not other related groups you single out the group under the microscope as somehow being 'other' and that is never a good thing.
Some 'others' are acceptable and some aren't. It is for instance unacceptable to identify physically disabled people as an "other" right up until the point where you are considering what additional physical requirements might help them, at which point it immediately ceases to be a negative and becomes a positive (for most people). Diseases/illnesses are another classic case, it's terribly politically incorrect to talk about "HIV sufferers" as somehow being different or "other" to normal people. But my god but you'd be a bit pissed off if you had HIV and your doctor said "Well I know you've got HIV but I've decided to treat you like any other patient, so I'm going to ignore that factor". We expect our doctors to take account of our special medical needs that's rather the point of them... (If anyone reading this has HIV then I apologise for any offence caused, I tried to think of a rarer but still well known and relevant example and frankly I couldn't.)
My point is simply that there are "good" ways to treat people as different and "bad" ways to do so (I'm starting to sound like Marios now, so I'll move on).
Gender is a huge politically poisonous issue. There don't seem to be any circumstances in which it is acceptable to analyze and treat women as women. Now I freely accept that the topic could have been better framed. My opening post was meant to be partly self-mocking pointing out how Maelstrom doesn't achieve the gender ratios I (or others I know) had presumed and I was trying to get to the point that these kind of assumptions (about women and what women want) are dangerous unless tested ruthlessly against real data (not that my data is real data). Partly I was saying "here is some interesting data about gender gaps" but partly I was trying to say to point up the fact that the idea of "what women want" which is a common concept in LRP may be just as fallacious as our assumptions about Maelstrom's gender ratio. Mostly though I was just following on from Rosie's thread about women, so the name really came from there. Either way, gender is a poisonous issue and I should have been much more careful, for that I apologize.
But your comment is very interesting "analysing one group and not other related groups" you say. Is it physically possible to discuss what women want in LRP without discussing what men want at the same time? Being a man or a woman is fundamentally an either/or situation. Every human being is a man or a woman (the exceptions are statistically minuscule and not really relevant). Saying "women don't like fighting" is logically meaningless, it can only be coherent as an idea in the sense of "women like fighting less than man do" or "man like fighting more than woman do". You cannot discuss what women want without simultaneously discussing what men want, because the two are mutually exclusive all encompassing sets. They are quite simply the inverse of each other.
I freely accept that the language was very loose and imprecise and the ideas may have been poorly expressed. I absolutely accept that the whole topic overwhelmingly conveys the impression of talking about women and what women want from LRP. From a personal point of view I am not interested currently in what men want from LRP, because my assumption is that the majority of LRP was written and created by men for men, and hence I am assuming, that men (as a category) are getting what they want from LRP. I am assuming that this may or may not be the case for women and that this may or may not be the reason why more men do LRP than women. Hence I'm interested in what the conclusions have to say about what women want from LRP, but the conclusions (if any) are identical (but reversed) for men.
I can and should have taken more care to present this in a more neutral tone, but I do believe that we're not actually saying anything about women that we're not also saying about men. Is it patronizing to talk about what men want from LRP?
Naturally it's important for you to crunch the data and see what you can do to grow your player base, it's your business.
The dwindling remnants of the good scientist in me has already compelled me to admit my financial interests in the data. However I am more interested in "making a better LRP" as a technical issue than as a business issue. A better LRP being one in which people enjoy it more, which can be derived at by finding out what people enjoy about LRP.
But a thread called 'what do women want from larp' does make it sound like women are an unknown species or some such, and therefore part of the 'not we'
It does, I apologize again for the language. However I am not a woman, so I am not a part of the we. In particular, I was interested in trying to analyze data about women as a category to see if that gave insight, into either women, LRP, or women in LRP all of which I would find interesting. As such I wasn't personally interested in the individual expressions from individual women, rather I was hoping to invite men and women to discuss women as an unknown species.
If you accept that you cannot get from the generalities of a category average to a conclusion about an individual, then it seems to me to reasonably logically follow that you cannot get from statements about the individual to generalities about a category average (other than the sense in which you get lots of them and average them). One woman or five women saying "Well I like fighting" tells me *fuck all* about what women like in LRP, you need five thousand women to get to that data, in the same way that data about what five thousand women like about LRP tells you noting about what one woman likes about it.
So I was really looking to discuss the data about what men and women want from LRP abstracted away from the personal experience of being a man or a woman in LRP. In a very real sense I was looking for everyone, men and women to think about women (and men) as an unknown species and part of the "not we".
It just initially struck me as patronizing in general to women, not to me as an individual, other than I am a member of that group and this is the latest thread in the 'look women! in our game!' kinda thing. I probably should have kept my two penneth in my pocket, I know you're damned if you do damned if you don't in situations like this, but I've always been a fan of The Damned, it's Dave Vannion's hair so cool
I preferred the late period when Patricia Morrison played bass. Mostly because she is one of the most beautiful women who ever lived. It's that old gender thing again I fear...
I do agree that this is a very tricky and highly inflammatory subject to discuss, but it's so much more interesting (to me at least) than so much of what I read on the internet that I feel driven to try. I honestly haven't noticed that many gender related threads, but there have been a few since the original one by Rosie, but isn't that the nature of the internet? That conversations lead to related conversations. I'm not aware of gender having been discussed here recently (ever to be honest). We may well end up damned for discussing this, but it seems worth the risk to me.
But this is another 'women' thread, why not bung up the ratios/stats and call the thread 'what do men want from larp' if it's equally relevant?
Mostly lazyness. I started this thread from a post on Rosie's thread elsewhere. It started as a massive post (what from me? - never!) with loads of data at the end drawn from the Maelstrom database and then I thought - that's a side issue it's not relevant to Rosie's post, I'll be a good rule7er and start a new topic. So I split my post in half, rewrote each part to separate the points and brought the rest here. And I just spat up the title without thinking (I reserved the thinking for the byline, since I felt a long and tedious data set needed a funny intro, I should probably have spent it writing a useful title and a framework for the ensuing debate).
getting the opinions of a few people who post on threads like this surely can't tell you much?
I'd say (I did say) it tells you nothing. It just tells you what those people like.
Hand out questionnaires asking people why the chose the skills they do might give the stats a meaning.
It might. I'm very wary of such things. I think any attempt to give stats meaning is laced with danger. I am not a professional statistician, not any kind of social researcher, so I am happy to have a stab and run some numbers up the mast, but I'd tread carefully when trying to interpret the data or extrapolate. I think there should be a few posts on here pointing out the dangers of that (and some from others also).
Quoting stats/ratios and asking for anecdotal comment
With the greatest respect, I don't believe I asked for anecdotal comment. A fair few people posted their own anecdotal comments, but I don't believe I asked for them. I had thought that I had couched my original post in terms that made clear that I was interested in the data and what it might or might not mean. The beauty of the internet is that is the freedom of speech allows people to answer you in anyway they choose, you can start a debate but you can't control it. People discuss what they want to discuss and as a person who regularly derails other people's posts I have no complaint at all when my own go off the rails. However while I accept that my language in my opening post was lazy and imprecise, I sincerely hope you can't point to anything I said in it that could be construed as asking for anecdotal comment, I don't think it's there.
immediately takes stats into the 'lies and damned lies' I hate that quote with a passion that is palpable. Statistics are wonderful, enlightening, profound things, even the ugliest statistics are beautiful, the best amongst them are things of such sublime beauty that they compare with the greatest works of art and literature ever created by mankind. Statistics are truth itself, they are the means by which we can know things, the language of the universe in which reality can be distinguished from unreality. People should be encouraged to love and cherish statistics, in the same way that we encourage people to admire "high-brow" culture. There is as much beauty and wonder and truth in the GNP statistics for sub-Saharan Africa as in an opera by Verdi. Without statistics there is no physics, no science, no knowledge. We can admire and create and describe but we cannot know.
Of course some statistics are dangerous. My statistics at the start of this post are the mathematical equivalent of a 3 year old's line drawing displayed on the fridge door, they're only dangerous to people who are only given crayons... Of course statistics can be used and abused. They can deceive and mislead. But Hitler adored Wagner and appropriated the music for propaganda (Wagner may or may not have been a racist himself), does that invalidate Wagner's music? Does that invalidate all music. Art can enlighten and uplift the mind or it can oppress the human spirit. Statistics can enlighten and broaden the human mind or bind it into water-tight ignorance. Statistics are dangerous precisely because they are so powerful and so very important. Get them wrong and you embrace falsehood. But I truly hate this quote because it often seems to be used not to urge the user to sensible and wise caution at handling something as powerful and important and overwhelming as statistics, but rather to suggest disdain and contempt for the very idea, as if a superior kind of thinking, one free of statistics, might somehow be arrived at by avoiding this pernicious evil.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Christopher Tookey's lovechild.
      
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Matt Pennington (6/25/2008)
immediately takes stats into the 'lies and damned lies' I hate that quote with a passion that is palpable...
*applauds*
The quote is from a man who had no training in statistical theory at a time when said theory was still unrefined. Using it in a serious context today is like holding up a red rag saying "I'm ignorant, but I'm still going to dismiss out of hand your skills and knowledge" to anyone who has any training with stats.
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Eos: Diego Gatito - the worst ninja in the world.
Insurrection: Marcus de Selene - the worst price negotiator in the world.
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Heroic Knight
      
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| As ignorant as I am, I still hold that stats are easily manipulated and in of themselves explain very little. I think* Twain was being ironic, something that mathematical minds tend not to notice, I think he was probably agreeing with Disraeli that statistics can be used and often abused to prove anything you want after all numbers are infallible are they not? Which was the point I was trying to make and failing to do so obviously. So; yes. If you take it that they literally thought that statistics were the work of the deville and eville and in need of burning at the stake, then yes they would be wrong. Given this, anyone quoting them blindly would indeed be a bit ignorant. Not that I'm saying I'm not ignorant, but I am bright enough to know that I know jack shit about far too many things even to list. But I think they meant what I think they meant, which was that stats can easily be manipulated and because numbers are beyond question to most people who take such things at face value-( which is most people) they are accepted as proofs and clever people can use them to prove all kinds of whack. I am sorry I didn't clarify this position with regards to the quote, I just didn't think people took Twain to be that ignorant, or the other bloke come to that, but I can see as the qouter I might be percieved (and probably am to a degree) quite ignorant of a more implied, rather than literal meaning. * I wasn't there and can only make assumptions based on the fact that even though they may have lived in a mathematical dark age, that both gentlemen were then and now regarded as a bit clever.
~'What is Archangel worth? - 'Nothing...everything'~
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