Site fees for a single event for us are between 4 and 6 thousand. That might sound like a huge amount of money, it is our single biggest cost. Not having to pay it would help considerably, in terms of additional resources for plot etc and better profit margins. If we could store equipment on site, instead of having to pay transport costs to and fro then the potential savings would rise by about 50-60%.

However I'm not convinced that these events are all getting their sites for free, it seems unlikely. Event running does bring tourist money to an area, but it's also big business and I would be surprised if the European nations were making free sites available to LRP events as a matter of course, particularly the larger ones like Conquest. Cheap sites would of course still help, and I suspect that land being cheap and plentiful in many areas of Scandanavia does help them, but I'm not aware that the land situation in Germany is radically different to ours.

From a financial point of view, the size of the event is the most significant element of the breakdown. For any given cost base, the profitability of the event begins to rise considerably with each additional player because a lot of your costs tend to be fixed rather than proportional. £4500 might seem like a huge sum of money to people running a game on a 200 player scale, but for us it's the price of 100 players and that appears to be within the random swing we get from one event to the next. Somtimes it's up, sometimes down, but my point is that the big German fests are, I have been told, on a scale four or five times bigger than us and probably twice the size of the Gathering. (Those may be LRP numbers, in which case you have to divide by 2 to get real numbers). While their site costs will be bigger they will not be significant factors determining the budgets available to them, their player base size will be the critical factor there.

It's difficult to really compare the two. Having looked at the video discussed I was very impressed - with the quality of the video. I felt it had been extremely well made to showcase the quality of the event. Shots seemed to be well chosen and filmed, but it's difficult to know what the true picture is. To my mind the event *looked* a lot like the Gathering, size indeterminate, some fantastic costumes and some beautiful elements. It may have had some of the negative features of the Gathering or it may not, but I couldn't tell that from the video. I look forward to hearing what the guys going over there have to say about it.

From what I've heard the big german fests are about 5000 players currently, about twice the size of the Gathering perhaps. That may be LRP numbers, I've heard the same figure quoted for the Gathering on occasion, (in the same way I've had people tell me that there are 2000 players at Maelstrom), however I was given those numbers by traders who trade there and who are often a much better judge of attendance size than players. If an event like Conquest is a once a year affair, if it's run over a four day event (say) and if it really did draw 5000 players then I wouldn't be overly surprised if it did enjoy some utterly fantastic level of player support resulting in beautiful costumes, ships and forts built on site, and so forth. Big fest events seem to draw a high level of commitment from a portion of the player base (of course there are always t-shirt and trainers players), so I'd expect it to be the same over there.

I suspect that the true advantages that the Europeans have is access to a much greater potential player base, arts funding for some games producing high general standards and less restrictive stupid safety rules. They may enjoy a higher level of commitment to the hobby (in the sense that the Scadanavians seem to think they take it more seriously), but I'm not sure that's pan European at all. In this case, in direct comparison with British fest LRP, the key difference seems to me to be to the level of organisational capacity and professionalism of the approach, which looked very high with the Conquest event, when I took a glance at the website.

Better organisation should, all other things being equal, produce a better event, and at this scale is much more likely to be the determining factor than a free site, in my opinion. Large event sizes make that much easier and player commitment would be a factor if it were greater.

The problem here is always starts with the politics. I started running LRP events when me and the clique of friends I hung round with were sacked by the LT. Given it was fairly acrimonious I find it difficult to imagine running an event with them and given that we are a direct business competitor I suspect the feeling is fairly mutual. LRP politics, business politics, doesn't seem to produce the kind of mix you need.

But more critically, they have an events running team. We have an events running team. What would be gained by merging the two? I could run an event for 5000 players without much problem, just scale up what I do now by a factor of five. I'd do it as well, if I could get 5000 players together for a good event. But I can't, 1000 is the best I can manage, and that just barely and only on good days.

Worse I think that most "cooperative" ventures are a total f**king disaster, to run on that scale (on any scale actually) you need a very clear chain of command and a very solid organisational structure and I don't think "everyone pulling together" would produce that, I think it would produce committees, politics and death. I'd avoid it like the bubonic plague.

Possibly a common world, with characters from everywhere would encourage lots of players to come, but given that's it's the opposite of everything I've ever done and run successfully, I'm inclined to doubt it. Enough not to want to bet my house on it. Maelstrom has nearly doubled size in four years based on a tightly defined world where you absolutely can't just bring characters in. Dropping that would, I feel, compromise the "LRP" and the net result would be less players not more. IMO.

Without trying to be funny I can clearly see the benefits to traders of huge fest events with thousands of players, but the benefits to players are less clear, event if they do include beautiful costumes and set pieces. LRP is more than that after-all.

The thread is profoundly interesting to me (I have a clear financial interest!!), but I'm not sure we are really any closer to working out how the Europeans do it, nor even what they actually do for that matter. I really must get over to one of the big European fests and to one of the Scandanavian art-house games, if only for purposes of work research. In the mean time I'd love to see more first hand accounts from people who actually went, like we had with the Dragonbane game.

Sorry, didn`t mean to be discouraging... 

I don`t think that`s ever going to work in the long run. You might pull off an event or two, but it doesn`t establish LRP as an independent product.

Okay, straining my poor brain and trying to be constructive, I may have come up with something: Entertainment and accommodation. Looking back on some posts in this thread and having read a multitude of posts on rule7 and pagga, it occurs to me that British players go to an event to play their characters and view everything besides as a needless - and expensive - distraction from the main course. Proponents of 'player-led plot' and 'proactive characters' are quite vocal. The German, OTOH, don`t seem to be afraid to simply entertain. Hiring musicians and other stage-troupes will initially raise expenses, but will also likely draw more players which makes the event more cost effective and in turn lowers the prices again. People can then go to the event knowing they`re unlikely to get bored. It`s not like they`re going to a concert, but there`s an obvious effort to set an atmosphere, apart from merely having a really cool setting.
Apart from that, an on-site market instead of an on-site caterer, or - even worse* - having to find transportation to the nearest supermarket, sounds a lot more appealing, although I take it not all events have this.
(* Don`t get me wrong, I like catering on small to medium events, where plot - not play - basically stops at mealtimes and the lines aren`t quite as long. But at big events, especially when attending in groups, I prefer campfire cooking.)
I visited a recruiting site for a new faction for one of the bigger German events, and it`s basically an outlet for a supplier. There`s a cool IC entry, an OC explanation, and then it`s all 'basic faction tunic - basic faction pants - basic faction surcoat - faction armour grade one, two and three - faction weapons', all at affordable pre-event prices. And it`s not just that it`s cheaper because it`s sold in bulk, but it`s all there. No need to look elsewhere, no need to scrounge. Any personal touches you can and want to add are great, but if not, you`ll still be a basic faction member in a decent faction outfit.
Especially that last bit is probably going to be hard to pull off in the British scene, because most players have kit already. German LRP is simply a younger market.

I`ll compare the two British systems I`ve seriously considered attending. On the one hand there`s Maelstrom. Why did I consider it? Well, because everybody was raving about it, and although I haven`t met any of the ravers personally, I recognize that many of them are experienced players that oughta know what makes a good event. The other one is Scurvy Scum (or Bandits, Brigands and Buccaneers, not sure what the official title is). Why? Because the whole concept sounds like fun. It`s not just instantly recognizably cool (Arrr, pirates!) but there`ll be plenty to do while the game part of it is simple and has very recognizable goals, and it supplies the weapons so you won`t have to worry about getting the right gun for the right weapons-checker. I will be saving for next year!

One big step to make is not to expect your attendees to be experienced players. Facilitate them. Get some suppliers and think of some basic kit that will work for the setting (ISO the generic warrior, thief, priest, wizard & all-round adventurer) and offer that at competitive prices. Tailoring your event to what people have in their wardrobe is fine if you intend to keep it small. Set some simple goals for characters/factions that easily explain what it is that people _do_ at LRP events (never mind _how_ they do it), and then get some things to do for when they`re not doing that, like games, competitions, training, demos and simple entertainment.
And set up local chapters, so people will maintain their kit. I`d rather have the combination of one big event a year and an easily accessible local campaign than several main events, or one main event and several offshoots that are still organised on a national level.
It`s probably all been said before. Smaller events are for diehards, but that doesn`t mean they won`t show up for some simple fun if you can get rid of the frustration & hassle factors.

Well, I`ve heard some, but like with any event that people enjoyed, it`s kinda hard to dig through all the froth.

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IRL: Edwin Hofstra

- mostly crewing at the moment

Players happily play system by word of mouth, so a good system will go play a number of otehrs and "show off". Ths enables prospective customers to talk to said owners of the game and see what they are like. This leads to them making a decision on them coming.

Now, poaching is a good way of getting players. However it's not the only way. A rare few publicise, get themselves on local radio and TV, even rarer they get on national TV. German LRP's?? They advertise and by advertise I mean really full on into it. They pull the punters in, by giving it a holiday feel to it.

LRP in the uk, it's not a holiday. By all of the vidence of previous posts here. People simply don't see it as a holiday. So they are no going to spend the same amount of time effort and money as they do going on holiday. German and Scandinavian tout their LRP's as good as a holiday. So therefore the money is spent in it.

Now for some people it's unlikely they will be able to put enough time and effort to cater for their players. They rely on the help of a playerbase to help them set certain things up.

Also, if you going to do a banquet night and "promise" no fighting then stick to your word. It's great to let people rolepay and get into politics. You don't always need to feed people plot plot plot all of the time. People like to do their own thing.

Fame and Fortune; DT/Ref/4th monster

SkullDuggery; Baron Tamworth Grim

Faded Glory; Book Crossbowman "not a mage"

Fame and Fortune; DT/Ref/4th monster

SkullDuggery; Baron Tamworth Grim

Faded Glory; Book Crossbowman "not a mage"