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Wag
 
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Flannel (4/29/2008)
Player led plot always happens.
But often the volume is very low because ref plot operates at a greater volume/the in-game incentives only support adherence to ref plot/the game rules explicitly disallows certain kinds of player-lead plot (no PvP).
Marios
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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Marios (4/29/2008)
Flannel (4/29/2008)
Player led plot always happens.But often the volume is very low because ref plot operates at a greater volume/the in-game incentives only support adherence to ref plot/the game rules explicitly disallows certain kinds of player-lead plot (no PvP). Marios Hmmm, Id say the volume was generally huge. However that depends what you consider as plot. Every story told by a player is plot, every interaction, deal, alliance, betrayal, action constitutes plot. I find these deals and alliances and interacting with them ( in general) far more interesting than the 'overplot' instigated by the game runners. In all systems the majority of 'roleplay' is player driven, the over story provides a backdrop for that interaction. Id say as a percentage ref led plot accounts for very little of that interaction and motivation of characters. Out of interest, cos ive never experienced it, which games ban PvP (by which I presume you mean players killing other player characters rather than P V P shennanigans, betrayals deals etc...) Im fairly sure none of the large systems do and an outright ban would be (in my experience only), an exception to, rather than the rule. Even in small systems based mainly on linear events (durham treasure trap for instance) The amount of player driven plot and intrigue was huge. (Or at least when I played, the system changes every few years.) I may be arguing semantics with what has been taken as the meaning of 'player led plot' here.... however im not sure I understand the term and dont find it particularly useful.
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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John Newton (4/29/2008)
If the refs (organisers, plot writers, NPCS, etc) had made it up, then it wouldn't be player-led. Plot is only player-led if it's led by players.
Define 'led'. At what point do I consider a player to have 'led' the plot? Technically the world is created by the Refs etc. So any action the players take can be said to have come from the Refs lead. Maelstrom for instance is often suggested to be a player led system, yet the mechanics of trading, the races and community make-up, the social conventions of those communities, the world and the reaction to 'prayers' etc are all defined by the Refs... The Player led plot is seen to happen against a background imposed by others. How does this differ from a linear where im presented with a quest for the magic sword of spoon? That may be the reason for the quest however my characters reasons for going couild conceivably have nothing at all to do with the magic sword and be entirely based on other motivations.... does that not count as player led plot because the ref plot is a more micro scale?
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Prodigal
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Bad methodology! Disallow player provisions or onsite catering, hide a few cans of food on monsters and by the second night all can-openers will have become magic items and the final showdown can be a race between Dysentery and possession of The Last Toilet Roll. Actually, I'm (slightly) involved in planning a certain larp at the moment (running end of May 09) where the players are refugees. Hunger (not starvation, but hunger at least) is going to be a factor in the event.
------ <insert really amusing sig here>
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Wag
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Flannel (4/29/2008)
Every story told by a player is plot, every interaction, deal, alliance, betrayal, action constitutes plot.
I think you're failing to distinguish between Player-reactive plot and Player-lead plot.
If the Big Bad comes and we are forced to Ally Together that's not player-lead plot, that's player-reactive plot. If I as a player fake the existence of a Big Bad to force you to ally with me, then that's player-lead plot - however, the existence of real Big Bads makes this difficult to do without involving refs.
Flannel (4/29/2008)
Out of interest, cos ive never experienced it, which games ban PvP
I've never been to any, but I understand Fools and Heroes and Heroquest do - interpretation seems to be Team Spirit rather than just "no player-player kills" - I would imagine there's a certain leniancy there, but probably it's a matter of ends rather than means. I don't know what the distribution of no PvP rules are in small clubs. LT is pseudo no PvP with the ritual of peace/death mats - sort of "PvP licenses" as a compromise.
Flannel (4/29/2008)
Even in small systems based mainly on linear events (durham treasure trap for instance) The amount of player driven plot and intrigue was huge. (Or at least when I played, the system changes every few years.)
Huge but not as huge as unkillable monsters crashing through the door. In my experience of being involved in DUTT, seeing various teams try to run _just enough_ ref plot to keep the people who like ref plot happy while doing everything possible to encourage player-lead plot - it's hard. Ref plot is injurious to player-led plot - even a small amount of ref plot is a very good reason to hold off from trying to advance player-led plot.
Flannel (4/29/2008)
I may be arguing semantics with what has been taken as the meaning of 'player led plot' here.... however im not sure I understand the term and dont find it particularly useful.
If you don't know what it means, obviously you won't find it useful. I think it's kind of significant because it immediately flags up what the organisers are trying to do/not trying to do.
If you're trying to run a player-led game (i.e one where the player-lead plot dominates any story-driven plot) then you have to do lots of things which are only going to piss off people who aren't bothered about player-led plot and they'll dramatically disappointed about the lack of support for decent story.
As far as I know, people who run player-led games _don't_ claim to also be running stories of the level of depth and quality as story-driven games (or be able to control the game so that everyone gets to interact with the story - or be able to provide amazing set pieces and props).
However, some story-driven games do occasionally claim to be supporting player-led plot, when what they really mean is that they are running flexible story-plot rather than 'traditional' inflexible story plot. The opportunity to react to the story and have that reaction integrated into the plot by a ref isn't to be knocked - but it's not player-led plot - supporting player-led plot is quite a bit harder than that in the same way that writing a linear game with three different endings is much easier than running a game with no pre-planned endings (non-linear adventures are decidedly experimental, even when the number of practical options is still quite limited).
It's important to know what people are trying to do so you can decide whether or not to attend and, if you're attending, what to expect/what to design for.
Marios
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Wag
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I'm not happy with my reply to other post, so I'm going to leap on this one too.
Flannel (4/29/2008)
Define 'led'. At what point do I consider a player to have 'led' the plot?
Technically the world is created by the Refs etc. So any action the players take can be said to have come from the Refs lead.
I think it's generally accepted that there's a continuum - but there are fairly obvious points you can mark off the most significant being "IC goals". The "plot" in player-led in "Player-led plot" is interaction due to the attempts of a character to achieve contested IC goals set by the player. If they are set by the ref, then the player contribution (interpretation) towards those IC goals is substantially reduced. Designing a world is not at all the same as telling players what their character's goals will be any more than paint-sellers are the ones who are really responsible for the final outcome of paintings. Paints, canvas, frames all do restrict the outcome of paintings - but not half as much as their removal.
Marios
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Champion
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Marios (4/29/2008)
I'm not happy with my reply to other post, so I'm going to leap on this one too.
This might also interest you.
http://www.createdebate.com/
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Heroic Knight
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| Player Lead plot... Intresting. However this can only really be done with people who actually want to drive an event. If players want to do "anything" they usually can, however a lot of players can be content to sit around and do nothing as they aren't sure what to do. I have written an event where players could do anything they wanted as it was written to follow anything PC's wanted to do. All teh players could have gone in different directions. Sadly they all said they were bored and did very little. It's intresting though. For me, player led plot is when teh driving force for the plot of the game world is player led. Where they wish to input information that creates the game. All the refs do is Hang on for the ride of their lives.
Fame and Fortune; DT/Ref/4th monsterSkullDuggery; Baron Tamworth Grim Faded Glory; Book Crossbowman "not a mage"
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 Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:11 PM |
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