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Wag
 
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Nath (4/27/2008)
Perhaps we need to define what 'plot' is, before defining what 'PC-led plot' is?
I don't think those definitions of plot are really useful - if you're not running a game with one ref organising a 'plot' then it's a bit vacuous.
This is why I prefer to stick to fairly concrete observables like "contested IC goals" - I want you to sign this treaty, you don't want to sign this treaty.
If people argue IC goals are irrelevant/secondary - you ought to be making decisions based on OOC narrative criteria - then you can immediately see that they are talking about a fundamentally different game where it's quite unnecessary to try to synthesise other criteria to describe the game.
Nath (4/27/2008)
Possibly what PC-led means is the plot is driven by the characters (hence the later term 'character-driven plot'), rather than by use of plot devices.
Which seems to imply that it's both redundant _and_ ambiguous, since characters can be plot devices. Since you've argued that there is no absolute distinction between PCs and NPCs and monsters (which I agree, but I think is irrelevant - relative distinctions are what tend to matter within a game as well as arbitrary player preferences about specific levels of autonomy) this seems to boil down to saying "plot" is advanced through people in play (rather than refs standing there and telling you what happens).
I'm perfectly happy with "player-led plot" - I can see a case for replacing it with "character-driven conflict" but I think it's actually inferior.
Shifting from "player-led" to "character-driven" suggests that the association between the players and the characters is incidental - that you can abstract them out of the situation without losing anything significant - that it is effectively exactly the same thing whether I get to create my own character or get handed one by someone else. That doesn't seem to be the case for the vast majority of players - adopting terms which ignore that/imply that it _ought_ to be the case aren't terribly helpful even if they do exude a sort of prestige "Well, _I'm_ above that sort of thing!".
Plot -> conflict is more meaningful - no conflict, no plot (even a straight-forward behaviourist 'account' has conflict insofar as the readers impute desires to the agents in the account). Most of the interactions may well be cooperative but they are necessarily going to directed to resolving some conflict (lets all work together to get through this famine). Even if you're just wandering about making friends it's still a conflict over attention/affection. However, I suspect most people would tend not to see conflict-cooperation as two halves of the same thing, so "plot" probably communicates it better.
Marios
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Heroic Knight
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| Plot is another word for storyline according to most proper dictionaries I've looked at (ok two) and is the concept I've always understood most people to mean when they use the word. Plot/storyline has a begining a middle and an end, it is a plotted this will happen series of events in a story. We do not participate in 'A' Plot at the player led game I play in, we push our goals and agenda's in much the same way people do RL, RL has no plot I've been able to discern. Unless; the world really is a stage and the celestial script writer does indeed exist. In which case, I'd like to know where the casting couch was, as I feel I should have been given the role of billionaire sex god. Not sad ass roleplay nerd You can hope for an outcome to your character's actions, thats not a plot, that is a goal, a dream a wish. It's not the same as a plot. To add; I'm really not trying to be a pedant...even though I am being I fear, must be the weather, anyhow; I just don't think you can have a 'player led plot' technically but if that's the term people are happy with then hey, why not, it's still a rose Oh and what is a Turkuist?. Oh, and I think improvised method acting is a 'how' not a 'what'.
~Lex malla, lex nulla.~
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Wag
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Sikorski (4/27/2008)
In which case, I'd like to know where the casting couch was, as I feel I should have been given the role of billionaire sex god. Not sad ass roleplay nerd
I thought you were moonlighting. That's ruined my day...
You can hope for an outcome to your character's actions, thats not a plot, that is a goal, a dream a wish. It's not the same as a plot.
I think this is a very reasonable criticism of the phrase player-led plot. What I think you and by that phrase is the emergent story that arises naturally from the contested aims of players which they set for themselves. Lots of people take plot to mean the elements the organizers/refs put into the story, if there aren't any (other than setting) than you can argue there isn't any plot.
Oh and what isa Turkuist?.
Someone who believes that true LRP can only be carried out in Turku, a large port in Finland.
Or not.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Heroic Knight
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Matt Pennington (4/27/2008)
Sikorski (4/27/2008)
In which case, I'd like to know where the casting couch was, as I feel I should have been given the role of billionaire sex god. Not sad ass roleplay nerd I thought you were moonlighting. That's ruined my day... You can hope for an outcome to your character's actions, thats not a plot, that is a goal, a dream a wish. It's not the same as a plot. I think this is a very reasonable criticism of the phrase player-led plot. What I think you and by that phrase is the emergent story that arises naturally from the contested aims of players which they set for themselves. Lots of people take plot to mean the elements the organizers/refs put into the story, if there aren't any (other than setting) than you can argue there isn't any plot. Oh and what isa Turkuist?. Someone who believes that true LRP can only be carried out in Turku, a large port in Finland. Or not. Ahh yes, that cheque for a million is going to bounce I'm afraid Fair enough -I think there are lot's of different ideas being put together but most people are at least in the same book if not on the same page. Oooooh Turku; it sounds so exotic...
~Lex malla, lex nulla.~
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Prodigal
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| . Oh and what is a Turkuist?. Someone who supports / agrees with the turku manifesto; In short, that roleplaying *is* immersion (rejecting gamism and narritivistism). http://www2.uiah.fi/~mpohjola/turku/manifesto.html http://www2.uiah.fi/~mpohjola/turku/vow.html
------ PD: St. Legion the blessed, ' "If you're a loyal eidolon, where were you when we killed the first-born?" RW: Ketta Sheng "Girls are evil. They break your heart, and then your spear, and then they get killed" EOS: Hasib Suran: "Yes, older brother, it's your choice. I only advise you." TNN: Druid Coran: "Do not heckle me, witch!"
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Heroic Knight
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Oh thanks for the links I had no idea. After a brief skim there seems to be some interesting things in there as well as some magnificent tosh.
~Lex malla, lex nulla.~
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Wag
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| Player led plot always happens. I have never seen a game where it didnt. People roleplay, plot happens. Just because the refs didnt make it up and attach a laminated card to it doesnt make it not real.
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Champion
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Flannel (4/29/2008)
Player led plot always happens. I have never seen a game where it didnt. People roleplay, plot happens. Just because the refs didnt make it up and attach a laminated card to it doesnt make it not real.So you have never heard of refs 'rolling back' a situation and declaring it never occured {ouch!}....
PD Head Ref- but as all posts here count as being unofficial, you'll need to email rules@PD for the real deal.
The PD Odyssey Campaign - the longest development period of any fest LRP system known - coming to you sometime in the next five years...
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 Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:13 PM |
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