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Wag
 
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Shven (4/30/2008)
Hanging of murderers? I have to disagree. Its not an effective deterrent, and you can guarantee that you'll hang afew innocents before too long.
If you believe hanging isn't a deterrent, are you arguing that (optional) castration is? Is castrating innocents not a concern?
Shven (4/30/2008)
Put all prisoners to work doing jobs that benefit society, and use this as a method of training them in useful skills that will make them more employable at the end. And let them keep a small percentage of what they earn on the condition that they do the work well (available only at the end of their sentence, and I'm talking maybe afew hundred pounds a year if that), so that when they get out they at least have a starting point.
I note that this is the ancient and venerable institution of slavery.
Marios
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Champion
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Marios (4/30/2008)
If you believe hanging isn't a deterrent, are you arguing that (optional) castration is? Is castrating innocents not a concern?
The deterrent argument was quite frankly the first that sprung to mind. since my dissagreement basically boils down to the fact that I consider it immoral for the state to kill people as a punishment I'll just state that now and you can agree or disagree with it. Makes no difference to me.
I dont recall suggesting that optional castration was a deterrent. The issue of not castrating innocents is duly addressed by it being optional. There will always be afew fuck-ups with sentencing of innocents and you can't avoid that - which is why I'm sticking by the 'optional' tag.
Marios (4/30/2008)
I note that this is the ancient and venerable institution of slavery.
Sure, if you want to attatch that label to it. I think you're casting your nets a little bit far but you can call it whatever you like (i'd have thought temporary indentured servitude would be a better one but its your label). Now that you've labeled it want to say why its wrong, or were you hoping that your ability to stick the word 'slavery' on it was sufficient?
------
PD - Machupa Kivull - Sandy coloured great-coated Gnoll
Shards/Ascendancy - Crew
FOIP is short for 'torture me for more info'
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Wag
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Shven (4/30/2008)
since my dissagreement basically boils down to the fact that I consider it immoral for the state to kill people as a punishment I'll just state that now and you can agree or disagree with it. Makes no difference to me.
Fair enough.
Shven (4/30/2008)
Sure, if you want to attatch that label to it. I think you're casting your nets a little bit far but you can call it whatever you like (i'd have thought temporary indentured servitude would be a better one but its your label). Now that you've labeled it want to say why its wrong, or were you hoping that your ability to stick the word 'slavery' on it was sufficient?
It's fairly recognisable as Roman domestic chattel slavery.
Forced labour is in contravention of various human rights practices we've signed on to, which is something of an issue. Otherwise there are basic economic issues with slave labour - tends to lead to stagnating economies and the disintegration of labour rights (whinge and we'll replace you with convicts). Giving the state an incentive to lock people up/push for extended sentences isn't terribly attractive either.
Marios
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Wag
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Shven (4/30/2008)
Castration of sex offenders I dont have a problem with. I think its a good idea but since it most definitely constitutes cruel and unusual punishment they should be able to elect between that and a (long) jail term.
I'm not really interested in punishment so much as reducing recidivism. The little I have read seems to suggest that recidivism rates are particularly high for sex offenders but are massively reduced in the few places where castration is used as a punishment. More research needed I'm sure but if the figures I've read are true, then I don't feel inclined to let anyone out of prison for sex offences if statistically there is an 80% chance they will repeat the offence.
Hanging of murderers? I have to disagree. Its not an effective deterrent, and you can guarantee that you'll hang afew innocents before too long.
Deterrents are tricky things. If dying isn't a deterrent then what is?
Put all prisoners to work doing jobs that benefit society, and use this as a method of training them in useful skills that will make them more employable at the end. And let them keep a small percentage of what they earn on the condition that they do the work well (available only at the end of their sentence, and I'm talking maybe afew hundred pounds a year if that), so that when they get out they at least have a starting point.
Why keep people waiting years? If earning money is a rehabilitative effect and I suspect it is, then why not allow people to work in prison, earn money and enjoy luxuries as a result? It seems a better motivation than "jam tomorrow next decade".
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
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Shven (4/30/2008)
The deterrent argument was quite frankly the first that sprung to mind. since my dissagreement basically boils down to the fact that I consider it immoral for the state to kill people as a punishment I'll just state that now and you can agree or disagree with it. Makes no difference to me.
The ethics of punishment are interesting. It costs money to keep people in prisons. Lots of money as it happens. Lets say it costs £20K a year which I suspect is a fraction of the true cost. And lets say a life saving heart operation costs £50K. So for every five people in prison on a life sentence for murder you could do two heart operations and save people's lives every year. But you don't, you let them die and you spend the money keeping the five murderers in prison instead. Is that murder by the state?
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Champion
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Matt Pennington (4/30/2008)
[quote]I'm not really interested in punishment so much as reducing recidivism. The little I have read seems to suggest that recidivism rates are particularly high for sex offenders but are massively reduced in the few places where castration is used as a punishment. More research needed I'm sure but if the figures I've read are true, then I don't feel inclined to let anyone out of prison for sex offences if statistically there is an 80% chance they will repeat the offence.
Its a fair point. My preference alongside castration would be regular psychological examinations and prisoners not released unless it is deemed that they are rehabilitated. But given the cost, the likelihood of prisoners faking it without it getting picked up and the likely pressure to push for release if there is prison over-crowding, Castration is probably a better option.
Deterrents are tricky things. If dying isn't a deterrent then what is?
Murder is a tricky thing generally. Unless you think all murder should be given the death sentence its quite difficult to draw the line.. As I said, its mostly simply a case that I think execution is immoral, and thats always going to be a value judgement.
Why keep people waiting years? If earning money is a rehabilitative effect and I suspect it is, then why not allow people to work in prison, earn money and enjoy luxuries as a result? It seems a better motivation than "jam tomorrow next decade".
I don't have a problem with that method either. If that were to be done then you would have to Police your prisons quite well to make sure the jam stays in the hands of those that earnt it though.
------
PD - Machupa Kivull - Sandy coloured great-coated Gnoll
Shards/Ascendancy - Crew
FOIP is short for 'torture me for more info'
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Champion
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It's fairly recognisable as Roman domestic chattel slavery.
Forced labour is in contravention of various human rights practices we've signed on to, which is something of an issue. Otherwise there are basic economic issues with slave labour - tends to lead to stagnating economies and the disintegration of labour rights (whinge and we'll replace you with convicts). Giving the state an incentive to lock people up/push for extended sentences isn't terribly attractive either.
Then give prisoners choice between working and doing bugger all.
There are always going to be complications to any system of punishment. I think the complications with this can be addressed to give a system better than the one we have now. In this case with stringent controls on sentences, strong labour laws and possibly limits on what situations convicts can be employed in.
------
PD - Machupa Kivull - Sandy coloured great-coated Gnoll
Shards/Ascendancy - Crew
FOIP is short for 'torture me for more info'
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I do talk a good fight
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How about:
1st serious offence (any violence, sex crimes, any aggravated crime, hard drug dealing, etc.), swing the liberals into action -- give loads of money & support to counsel the criminal & rehabilitate them & return them to society & convince them never to offend again. Help set them up with work, training, a career, a decent place to live, etc., once their counsellors & therapists have agreed that they're suitably rehabilitated.
2nd serious offence: execution. The do-gooders have had their chance at rehabilitation; it's failed. Give the right-wing nutters the chance to exercise THEIR fantasies about how to reform criminal justice, for a change.
No need for prison. 
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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