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Prodigal
 
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theshoveller (4/14/2008)
.Conscription is intended (at least in a democracy) as an expression of civic duty. How can we expect civic duty from people who don't see themselves as part of the nation?We can't! Which is why inclusion work is so important- unfortunately it's so poorly funded that it has to target those who are already disenfranchised, rather than being a universal service which prevents social exclusion to begin with. However before we get to carried away with our inclusive society idea- lets not forget what can be done when you have one. Nazi Germany was one of the most inclusive societies in modern times for young people (so long as you were Germanor at least Aryan) with massively high levels of social and political participation amongst the young, giving the Nazi's a huge, unquestioning manpower resource. Do we really want to give a gov't that kind of power?
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Heroic Knight
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| I like hte idea of national service as a means for drilling dissaplin into those who are sliding and can be corrected but i dont think giving them guns will help. Also community service is often seen as demining so they will continue to rebell from it. Maybe a bombination of the 2 would work better, the dissaplin, drilling and physical of army but doing community work and building skills base, then at teh end you could ship them off for say 3 months to somwhere that needs wells drilling etc (prvoding they pass out) so it goes towards our aid budget.
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Eos: Sornasian: Gregory Patell Club Secretary Heroes and Heroines
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Wag
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AnthonyK (4/14/2008)
I like hte idea of national service as a means for drilling dissaplin into those who are sliding and can be corrected but i dont think giving them guns will help.
A very significant percentage of the homeless people in Britain are ex-services. The notion that army life gives you discipline seems to me to be failing the reality test. I favour the ideal of national service for academic liberals, I think the physical exercise and connection to reality would do them the world of good, but I can't see any benefit for those who are "sliding". As Andy says, they need something very different to military service.
Also community service is often seen as demining so they will continue to rebell from it.
Shouldn't punishments demean the person being punished? I'm not suggesting degrading people but I think humbling would be good and humiliating and mortifying wouldn't get my disapproval either. Personally I can't think of any sentence I would find more repellent and demeaning than incarceration, so I'm frequently bemused by these kind of debates.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Champion
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On the subject of feral kids, the types whom kicked sophie lancaster to death, an idea would be to stick them in a special containment facility and to give them 3 years compulsory community service, and only let them out to do various menial jobs, like cleaning, litter control, ect, send them back and make this their life for 3 years. the idea being that these beings stay the duration and are not excused when the poor little mites get a case of viral depression because they've had to work for a day, as so often happens now.
Mite claims job seekers, beats someone up, goes prison for a week, becuase its so stressfull, he's signed of for depression, 6 months later jobcentres send him on a scheme, he ends up hurting his back, and so on, now compulsory community service for this customer will be ideal
Then release them into the community with the proviso that if they are naughty again they go back on this community service, right after serving any prison sentence
____________________________________As the old robot saying goes "does not compute"
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Squire
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Interestingly enough a fairly well published american author blames the increase in "rights" for women as the reason for the increase in the amount of unrulely children we have.
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"We broke the law. We betrayed the code!"
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Wag
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[quote]Matt Pennington (4/14/2008)
A very significant percentage of the homeless people in Britain are ex-services. The notion that army life gives you discipline seems to me to be failing the reality test. [quote]Almost as if completely handing over self-determination in favour of doing what someone else tells you to do and killing people might drive you mad. If you wernt mad when you thought it was a good idea to sign up in the first place.
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Prodigal
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| It's true that a lot of ex servicemen end up homeless, it's also true that a significant number of university students drop out and that a lot of police officers get divorced. Every profession has life pressures- being in the forces restricts personal choice and to a certain extent life skills opportunities, but then most service personnel would say they get a level of comradeship and personal satisfaction that a civilian would never experience. Being in the forces requires (oddly enough) a strong mind and sense of self, the problems come with those who don't have them, which is why I object to national service, we haven't recovered the effects of the last generation who were forced into military service without a cause, lets not compound the mistake by doing it again. As for feral children- we couldn't afford enough places in units, it costs in excess of £4,000 a week to keep a child in a secure care environment.
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Heroic Knight
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I think many of you commenting on the armed forces/homeless issue really don't understand either the mindset it instils or the type of people who often join.
Some join the armed forces to get away from a piss poor home life, they are often borderline dysfunctional with issues relating to doing what they are told and are generally a huge pain in the ass for anyone who has the dubious pleasure of being in command of them. While the Armed forces will give them an organised regimented way of living it doesn't automatically follow that it teaches them how to relate to people any better or to function in a normal life. If their home life or family support network is an utter shambles it is unlikely they are willing or able to draw on that after they demob. Their is very real sense of loneliness and alienation that comes from no longer feeling part of that very close knit support network that has to be taken into account as well. It is perfectly possible to find yourself on the outside with not a great deal of money, no skills that are marketable, no home and absolutely no idea of what to do next or where to go.
The discipline the military instils in you is relevant only in so far as it usually translates into taking a pride in yourself and your work and being a good team worker. It doesn't prepare you for the pretty crushing sense of humiliation involved in singing for your supper via the dole or housing benefits or the depressing situation of applying for jobs again and again. All this doesn't even take into account the sometimes undiagnosed mental health issues, often not spotted prior to leaving. Until recently very little support was offered and the culture of the army was such that asking for it was a damn fine way to avoid ever getting any further advancement or promotion.
I may have a different perspective from my own background and then going on to be a careers advisor I deal and have dealt with many people who have gone through these sort of circumstances I think they are not unique to the armed forces the seem things seem to apply to merchant navy, oil rig staff in fact just about any sort of career that involves long periods inside a sealed enviroment . Summing up I think the issue is less to do with the job and more about the baseline they as individuals were starting from.
EDIT: I think Andy is pretty close to the mark.
PD Major Olrich Von Skorzezny. House Bakhana Archon, New World theatre of war.Fire Support - because the Marquis of Queensbury never had to go door to door in dispersed tactical formation, with multiple engagement zones and the threat of recurring lateral ambushes.
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