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Wag
 
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Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
It´s not that I thinkthe rules are complicated, cause thery´re not. But why use points at all. I mean what´s the point (pun intended) of using such a strict character creations system,in a game that´s focusing on political intrigue?
Okay - I think I see where you're coming from now. In a 30-50 person one-off game, I'd agree (and you can find a number of games that do work like that - there are probably some advertised on this board - the one I tend to attend is once yearly and normally fully booked).
In Britain, it's important to distinguish between games that run for ~20-60 people and ones that run for 800+ - the formats are going to wildly different. Once you mentioned LT, I think people automatically assumed you were looking for something on that scale (also, it's a lot easier, I imagine, for someone not local to Britain to _find_ the big events than to hunt up smaller, more specific events).
Political intrigue means different things depending big an event is. I think it's clearer to read Maelstrom as focusing on player-player interaction - which is necessarily political - for which, in a continued campaign, they need things to interact with and for.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Then I´d read the description, which often includes a short story to set the mood as well as giving a bit of info, and visit the webside if I´m interested.
The Maelstrom equivalent is the Almanac ('campaign section' of the website). 800+ people you're looking to set the mood and lay out the cultures/religions. There are little stories (one in the Rukh section) but you can't have just _one_ short story to set the mood because the mood is that all the cultures/religions have incompatible stories (one short story would not set the mood for a game set in the collapse of the former Yugoslavia - unless you want the mood to reflect that one side is good/the other bad or that everyone is 'kinda' the same - both of which would put me off).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
I´ll read through the description and the rules (usually less thanone tenth of Maelstroms) before deciding on what kind of character I want to play.
There are, I understand, freeforms about with no rules at all. As other people have said, relative to other systems the description of game world is immense and well-written and the rules section is minute (moreover, the section of the rules document that you _need_ to read is very small).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Now, this might lead to the game being unbalanced.
That's only necessarily an issue in continuous games (which Maelstromg, LT and CP are).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Well, I was a bit unclear I must admit. But it seemed to me, at least when I wrote that, that everybody was politicians of one kind or another. And anyone lower than that (servants, bodyguards, "normal" people) was played by NPCs. Not sure if my views have changed much. Is there really a need for NPCs? Couldn´t most, if not all, of those roles be played by (paying)players? I find it just as fun to play a slave as a commander, and I know I´m not the only one. The only role I´ve seen that has been hard to find players for is the common rank-and-file soldier (One reson why I´m always interested in playing one, to take a place noone else wants. Besides, I´ve got military training, and belive I´m god at that type of roles.)
Depends what you mean by politicians - everyone (non-hermit) in the world is a politician in the sense that they engage in political interaction with other human beings. It's a player-lead game set in 'Conquest of the New World' - every attending player has a certain degree of power to influence political events (whether they choose to use it or not).
However, most characters do not have Social Status per se. The organisers have a modest crew of about 20 or so bods for all NPC roles throughout the entire game (often they'll be playing the men-at-arms of the hosting group or small plot related roles). Even with the superlative makeup 20/800+ aren't terribly visible. If you wanted to attend a game _with_ a servant, you would very probably have to provide someone willing to play a servant. Equally, while there's nothing _forcing_ you to play a slave/rank-and-file man-at-arms/servant/bodyguards many people do (something you work out with the player you serve).
I know one guy who turned with nothing but a pair very raggedy trousers and proceeded to beg/grift/steal his way to trousers/shirt/shoes and a pocketful of stories.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
As long as they let me play my character as should be.
Some people like organisers and other players to give them leeway in interpreting the rules/outcomes. That can work ok in small narrative games which are on the edge of being freeforms - but it doesn't tend to work in big games. The Maelstrom organisers do receive backgrounds, but mostly I think just to check that meet the bare minimum accordance with the setting. There is a plot team and they will try to do things with people's background, but they are very small and it's not what the game is sold on. If you don't seek the organisers out, they certainly won't seek you out and interfere with what you're doing IC.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Now I think this turned into an example why narrative is good, but in the large story, these small narrative things hadno meaning at all. And the pristess and half-demon was acting just as their characters would. It was just that when things got heated, they knew what to do, and knew that the other was ok with it.
Similar(ish) things are run in Britain (but they are smaller and thus a bit harder to find/recommend). Are there Scandinavian larps that run like that but with 800+ people? If so, I'd be interested to hear how it scales up.
It's quite possible to enjoy small narrative games and big player-lead games (just so long as you're clear what you're getting into in each case) - so long as timing/funds don't force a choice.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Oh! I forgot to complain about lammies and refs.
They are ugly, annoying and you don´t need them. The only time you need lammies is for poisons, and refs... I don´t see any real need for them when you´re IC.
Refs generally are ugly, annoying and unnecessary - but it's considered rude to point that out. Maelstrom practices a far tighter ref-apartheid than you will have seen at LT - there aren't many of them and they are generally only allowed out their hut to do Things. Lammies are irritating, but less distracting than dropping OOC to inquire what something does/whether it's stealable. If you like games where you only see an organiser when you're packing down tents after time out, then Maelstrom is, I think, the best choice (out of the _big_ games).
Marios
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Apprentice
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| I´m not sure if I´m correct, but I don´t think Dragonbane used points. Have to see if Nath can answer that question. And theres a few bigger one (800+) events that I´m quite sure don´t, eighter. Quote: (also, it's a lot easier, I imagine, for someone not local to Britain to _find_ the big events than to hunt up smaller, more specific events). A good reason for aksing here, then. Quote: all the cultures/religions have incompatible stories Maybee, but a story about the travel through the maelstrom would certainly grab the readers attention, eh? Couldnt Find any story in the Rukh section. First Meeting, Fashion, Religion and Trade are the headlines, and it´s only facts. Quote: That's only necessarily an issue in continuous games (which Maelstromg, LT and CP are). Most games here are continuos. Of course, some only have a single event/year, while others have one or more main events and several smaller, more focused on aspects or groups of the campaign. The one I took the example from is running on its 8th year now. Quote: Similar(ish) things are run in Britain (but they are smaller and thus a bit harder to find/recommend). Are there Scandinavian larps that run like that but with 800+ people? If so, I'd be interested to hear how it scales up. Well, I must admit that there was a limit of 50 people on that one, but that was to get the mood the organisers was looking for. I see no reason why small pre-planned narratives like that could be used to add a bit of extra to bigger events. In fact, isn´t LTs linears and monster attacks pretty much the same thing? A bit extra to add to the experience. Why not, instead of throwing bodies at their players, get the rulers to organise something for example? A duel? A love affair they try to hide. Quote: there aren't many of them and they are generally only allowed out their hut to do Things. Well, I´m ok with them being there, but I prefer not to see them. At all larps I´ve been to here in Sweden the organisers has been refing their games... while playing their own role. Quote: Lammies are irritating, but less distracting than dropping OOC to inquire what something does/whether it's stealable. I haven´t anything about that kind of thing being a problem. Generally the rules state what are stealable and not. And all these magic weapons that´s so common at LT, and crafted weapons at Maelstrom... is there really any need for them? Does everybody want to be a hero that bad that there must be special weapons? Anyway, Malström and Hyborian Tales seems interesting, thus far. I want more. Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hate hitpoint systems. Apart maybee from heroic-combat games, there´s not that much need for hit points, especially since they are so damn unrealistic. I say: Roleplay the damage! If you get hit in the chest with a greataxe, you´re in pain and wont keep on fighting! It does not matter if you got hitpoints left and are wearing studded leather! You´d be lucky to get away with a few broken ribs! And roleplaying injuries can be fun.
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Wag
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Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
I´m not sure if I´m correct, but I don´t think Dragonbane used points. Have to see if Nathcan answer that question. And theres a few bigger one (800+) events that I´m quite sure don´t, eighter.
I got the impression Dragonbane was a heroic effort that ran up hard against scaling issues.
I wasn't clear there - I didn't mean to imply that _all big games must use a points-based character creation system_ - but that 'political intrigue' may well mean something different in an 800 person game than a 50 person game (presumably at Dragonbane character groups had differential amounts of stuff to bicker over?).
I think Maelstrom would work alright without a points based character generation system - resources would still have to be disbursed to players/player groups, so it's considerably neater if players do it for themselves - but equally, most British players are used to quite complex systems so there's an element of giving people what they are used to. As I said - it's there for people that want it, it's not intrusive for those who don't want it/happen to use it (3 years with one character - maybe used one skill once or perhaps twice).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
A good reason for aksing here, then.
True - but for asking about small groups you'll have to be specific or people will just tell you why they love Maelstrom/LT/CP. I would have suggested The Fallen, but I think that's been discontinued - perhaps if you scroll down and look at the various groups just under LT/Maelstrom/CP on the main forum page.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Maybee, but a story about the travel through the maelstrom would certainly grab the readers attention, eh? Couldnt Find any story in the Rukh section. First Meeting, Fashion, Religion and Trade are the headlines, and it´s only facts.
Again, I think that's intentional (I'm afraid the Rukh story is an inset which appears in the printed Alamanac - you can send off for a player pack - but not on the website). The Alamanac is an IC document giving you a flavour of the various groups (and the material to work with to come up with a suitable group concept). It's a compendium of common prejudices - not an insider's view on each culture. Once you sign up for a character you get a set of briefing sheets for your race/culture/faith/etc. which have stories, more detail and are secret (i.e. only people who are playing or have played amunsari know the full amunsari background - or characters who've tortured it out of amunsari characters).
Effectively, this is the same sort of thing you mentioned before (you see some system blurb, you have some ideas, you put them forward and you get a more detailed response on which to base a more detailed background), but with 800+ players, 4 events a year and a closed setting.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Most games here are continuos. Of course, some only have a single event/year, while others have one or more main events and several smaller, more focused on aspects or groups of the campaign. The one I took the example from is running on its 8th year now.
Generally speaking, the one-offs I've been in have been able to stop worrying about game/character balance because you don't play with those characters again (you might play in the same vague world setting, but not the same characters). In a one-off format, it doesn't matter if one of the players eats the brains of several of the other characters, assimilates their power and becomes effectively indestructible because in the next game we're all playing something different. If we weren't, then I think people would feel under pressure to restrain themselves in a way that you generally don't have to in a one-off.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Well, I must admit that there was a limit of 50 people on that one, but that was to get the mood the organisers was looking for. I see no reason why small pre-planned narratives like that could be used to add a bit of extra to bigger events. In fact, isn´t LTs linears and monster attackspretty much the same thing? A bit extra to add to the experience. Why not, instead of throwing bodies at their players, get the rulers to organise something for example? A duel?A love affair they try to hide.
In my (limited) experience, what works fantastically in a 50 person event dies on its arse in a 500 person event. I think you're right though - LT linears are pretty much an attempt to do just that. If you think it works, then you'll enjoy the LT (and possibly their smaller 'sanctioned events' too). In my experience, LT linears are the worst linears I've ever been on - not because of the people running them, simply because they just don't suit a game with 2000+ players - generally speaking, even big fans of the LT don't expect much from linears.
Like I say, Maelstrom does have a plot team. If you send in a background, characters from it may appear and interact with you. However, we are talking a plot team of a handful of people with handful of bods to send out/800 players. You don't need to look to NPCs for interesting interaction - there are 800 players - many of whom may be willing to duel with you/fall in love with you (perhaps one then the other?).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Well, I´m ok with them being there, but I prefer not to see them. At all larps I´ve been to here in Sweden the organisers has been refing their games... while playing their own role.
That's generally what people do in small games (where you can recognise a ref by recognising his/her face).
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
I haven´t anything about that kind of thing being a problem. Generally the rules state what are stealable and not. And all these magic weapons that´s so common at LT, and crafted weapons at Maelstrom... is there really any need for them? Does everybody want to be a hero that bad that there must be special weapons?
Well, that's because it's definitely stealable if it's got a lammy on (if I'm remember rightly). Maelstrom has very high costuming and kit standards (enormous pavilia kitted out with all sorts of IC paraphernalia) - it's not really amenable to clear delineation the way it would in a smaller game.
Items/Money/Kit works very differently in Maelstrom than it does at the LT. The times I've been to the LT I've had no interest whatsoever in getting hold of money because there's so very little you can do with it (unless you're in the know). Again, items are rare and most are only directly useful in affecting monsters (which I'm not really fussed with). A certain amount of player trade goes on - but only between LT regulars who know what's what.
At Maelstrom, economics effects everyone and there's lots and lots of stuff you can do with money (buying food so the people/men-at-arms of your colony don't starve, paying to have a church built so they have somewhere to pray, buying a whore ...). Items are pretty significant - the difference between having a decent sword (and knowing what to do with it) and not is substantial. For some people, a sword is something you need to be 'a hero'. For other people, it's a status symbol. For others it's a piece of metal you use to kill people.
Tarnfire (1/12/2008)
Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hate hitpoint systems. Apart maybee from heroic-combat games, there´s not that much need for hit points, especially since they are so damn unrealistic. I say: Roleplay the damage! If you get hit in the chest with a greataxe, you´re in pain and wont keep on fighting! It does not matter if you got hitpoints left and are wearing studded leather! You´d be lucky to get away with a few broken ribs! And roleplaying injuries can be fun.
Roleplaying injuries isn't mutually exclusive with hitpoints systems (most of the systems I've been in are hit point systems and everyone roleplays blows). The point isn't that hitpoint systems don't roleplay blows, but that they roleplay blows consistently (the mechanic tells me how hurt I am, I then roleplay that hurt).
Hitpoints aren't necessary if few players are ever likely to be in a position of conflict. I wouldn't like to have to be the one to decide whether I won a crucial fight or not - I'd much rather have some system separate of me and my opponent so that we both have a chance of winning/losing which we can only effect through IC combat. Some people get very excited about what constitutes realism - what would cut through/who would _really_ have parried that blow if they were using _real_ swords and were _real_ mid 15th century swordsmen. Not being a reenactor or a medieval scholar I prefer to engage with stuff that the untrained can see and objectively agree on - so I'm kind of leery of heroic-combat systems.
But if you like heroic-combat, then I think you might well like Hyborian Tales.
Marios
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Prodigal
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| Yes, that's the larp I'm looking into coming over for in August. Elin (who I know from my time as a DB organiser) invited me over for it. Nordic larp is very different, otherwise I wouldn't feel the need to travel for it. I'll also be over this year for Nodal Point in April, so I'll see you there if you are going. You are correct, Dragonbane didn't have any kind of points system. It also didn't really have any 'soft skills' in the conventional sense (possible exception for magc, but I'll avoid digressing further). One of the differences is Maelstrom has a LOT of cultures, and tries to provide some briefing material (short stories included) for all of them. Nordic larps tend to have a lot less cultures (e.g. dragonbane had 3), which allows not only greater briefing of the culture (and less briefing in total), but also greater more indepth exploration of the culture in play. To be honest, (getting back to the original queston). I think you might be better off at some of the smaller UK larps. You may also want to check with the UK freeform community (they use a yahoogroup called 'uk-freeforms').
------ <insert really amusing sig here>
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Champion
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| If you are looking for a low fantasy game with a realistic feel, then take a look at Dumnonni Chronicles. They have a section on this forum, but there is more information on their own website - http://www.dumnonni.com/ And Marios - you're beginning to sound like a frothing fanboy; it's not compulsory to like Maelstrom. 
____________________
"Fantasy is the artificial sweetener upon the poisoned cake of materialism." - R. J. Stewart
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Wag
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John Newton (1/13/2008)
And Marios -you're beginning to sound like a frothing fanboy; it's not compulsory to like Maelstrom.
I've been pushing the virtues of Durham's 3YGB (without naming it) - but since it's likely to get rapidly booked up by Durhamites, I can't really proffer it as a practical option.
I don't think it's compulsory to like Maelstrom - but I think you can dislike Maelstrom while still appreciating the coherency of the motivating logic (although possibly not from a third hand description). I'm also curious as to whether Swedish larp has some dramatical distinct solution to larp scaling issues. Most importantly, it's revision season.
Marios
P.S. Reviews don't need to be value-free, just so long as they contain enough detail that you can potentially reject what the reviewer embraces.
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Wag
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| I agree that what the OP needs to look at here are British freeforms not LRP because what you define as LRP we seem to define as freeform. Having said that, there is a great deal of difference in style, rules etc between most UK LRPs. Some are very rules heavy, some are very rules light. Some have visible referees (in hi vis), others have 'hidden referees' who dress in costume and play roles. Some LRPs have a freeform stlye outlook (but still use points to keep things relatively fair), other don't. Best bet is to search through the campaign section in this forum and do the search in UK freeform as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
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