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Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:39 PM


I do talk a good fight

I do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fight

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Nah, I think the combination of black canvas jeans + pointy goth boots + black polyester velvet shirts + white Tina Turner frightwig + black makeup just makes one look like an idiot, almost entirely unlike any depiction of Drow in their dodgy D&D origin days. (Why the fuck people didn't go back to the real source material & play Melniboneans, I'll never know, instead of doing the knockoff of a knockoff that is LRP Drow.)


http://www.hyboriantales.com

PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)

"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
Post #47729
Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:54 PM


Christopher Tookey's lovechild.

Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.

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Pod (12/10/2007)
We also agree on the relevance of re-enactment to LARP (none). 

So the idea of getting a group of re-enactors and larpers together to do some larping in historically accurate kit, uniforms and battle tactics would seem a bit stupid.

*muses*

If you want to do a historically accurate LARP then re-enactment authenticity considerations would be relevant.  On the other hand, another way to refer to authenticity considerations under those conditions would be "good roleplaying".

There is a bit of a problem with the concept of historically accurate LARP - real weapons don't work like LARP weapons.  A 15th century bill line, for instance, would be rather weak using LARP weapons if it came up against a shield wall.  A shield wall itself looks rather odd when none of the participants can thrust.  Massed archery is a bit silly when high angled volleys aren't allowed. 

You can fix some of that by making some special damage calls intrinsic properties of weapons.

What period did you want to do?

------------------------------
Eos: Diego Gatito - the worst ninja in the world.
Insurrection: Marcus de Selene - the worst price negotiator in the world.

Post #47747
Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:19 PM
Champion

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You could easily get round that by insisting on stab-safe polearms, as Dumnonni Chronicles does.

Of course, if your main concern in a historically accurate LARP is how to adequately model mass combat, you might as well stick with reenactment. To my mind, accurately replicating the society of a given period (through both costume and roleplaying) is more important.

-- -- --

Eos: Manius Shard. Upset.

FnH: Officious Guard no.1

Post #47758
Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:24 PM


I do talk a good fight

I do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fight

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Smileyface (12/11/2007)
There is abit of a problem withthe concept ofhistorically accurate LARP - real weapons don't work like LARP weapons. A 15th century bill line, for instance, would be rather weak using LARP weapons if it came up against a shield wall. A shield wall itself looks rather odd when none of the participants can thrust. Massed archery is a bit silly when high angled volleys aren't allowed.


I'm not convinced that "15th century bill lines" are that historically accurate anyway -- they seem to be more a construct of the limitations of 15th century re-enactment than anything else, and maybe partly a consequence of ex-Sealed Knot people getting involved in 15th century re-enactment! Weren't 15th century British armies around 85% to 90% archers, with other troops generally mixed in among them?

Most LRP games I've been in allow angled arrow volleys, too -- only one or two of the bigger ones don't, AFAIK. It's not like sending your arrows up at anything beyond a 45 degree angle will make 'em go any further, anyway.


http://www.hyboriantales.com

PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)

"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
Post #47766
Posted Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:14 PM


Christopher Tookey's lovechild.

Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.Christopher Tookey's lovechild.

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Last Login: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:00 PM
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Ian Sturrock (12/11/2007)
I'm not convinced that "15th century bill lines" are that historically accurate anyway -- they seem to be more a construct of the limitations of 15th century re-enactment than anything else, and maybe partly a consequence of ex-Sealed Knot people getting involved in 15th century re-enactment! Weren't 15th century British armies around 85% to 90% archers, with other troops generally mixed in among them?

It's supposed to be roughly 80% archers (some of whom might join in the melee, depending on circumstances).  This is something re-enactors never manage, because battlefield archery is a bit dull.  The other 20% is mostly feudal levies, which means bill lines.  Think though, if it's an 8000 per side battle, that still means 1600 dedicated melee troops, so it's a fairly hefty formation.

Actually, 'formation' might be overstating the organisational virtues of the period.    Still, the approved methods of the period involve forming one or more lines of polearm troops and then having small groups of more heavily armoured elites for containing breaches.  One of the techniques Edward IV used involved putting the new recruits as the front line (which is obviously the place with the highest casualty ratio, right at the start of the melee), and then having his veterans in the lines behind them.  This means the lancastrian veterans (in the first line) push his front line back, and eventually break it... to find themselves facing completely fresh veterans.  As an added bonus, his raw recruits don't run as often.

As an aside, I've only ever met two people who actually let slip that they'd been in the sealed knot before doing fifteenth century.  One of them had only used firearms before and was nice (yet another gunner who smoked though.  Why do people carrying bags of black powder always smoke?).  The other was absolutely convinced that he was gods gift to both single-handed sword work and the gentle are of using a halberd, and therefore objected to going through basic training.  He also objected to being consistently beaten by every other newbie that year.  He's gone away now. 

Ian Sturrock (12/11/2007)
Most LRP games I've been in allow angled arrow volleys, too -- only one or two of the bigger ones don't, AFAIK. It's not like sending your arrows up at anything beyond a 45 degree angle will make 'em go any further, anyway.

A cause for celebration.  Quick, fetch me a 28lb bow, and a protractor!

Oh wait... bow use requires "wear (type of) armour".  Nuts.

------------------------------
Eos: Diego Gatito - the worst ninja in the world.
Insurrection: Marcus de Selene - the worst price negotiator in the world.

Post #47806
Posted Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:28 PM


I do talk a good fight

I do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fightI do talk a good fight

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Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:26 PM
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Fair enough -- that makes some sense. What I'd read indicated that in most battles, most of the archers fought on foot, too, & probably didn't have bills -- so though there doubtless was the odd bill line, there are probably an awful lot of mixed-armed lightly armoured archers, plus yer dismounted knights with pollaxes of course. My point really was that re-enactment battles aren't significantly more historically accurate, in terms of tactics & strategy, than LRP battles. They're inaccurate in different ways, mind...

As for 45 degrees, no archer should need a protractor for that! And with IDVs shot at 45 degrees from a 30-pound bow, you can get some serious volleys going on...


http://www.hyboriantales.com

PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)

"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
Post #47819
Posted Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:50 PM
Apprentice

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If you want to do a historically accurate LARP then reenactment authenticity considerations would be relevant.  On the other hand, another way to refer to authenticity considerations under those conditions would be "good roleplaying".

It is a bit spurious to say that historical authenticity can be replaced with "good roleplaying". If thats true then good roleplaying of a historical period can be had with a bit of imagination and your mums curtains. Possibly true if you live on your own in a darkened room but hardly likely to convince anyone else.

It needs some thorough research of the period to get the right costumes, political and military structures and then there is constructing appropriate backgrounds for all the characters interweaving the major and minor events of the preceding years. There are the language patterns and modes of address. There is the music and the food. Then there is all the camping and marching equipment.

You can make it all up if you want but it gives you a very rich culture to interact through. Suspension of disbelief becomes easy for everyone and you get to see the world in a different light. Black leather armour makes the process harder as it does not seem to be based on anything but Modern (current day) fashions. Fine for many games but not fantasy - as in its not fantastical.

There is a bit of a problem with the concept of historically accurate LARP - real weapons don't work like LARP weapons.  A 15th century bill line, for instance, would be rather weak using LARP weapons if it came up against a shield wall.  A shield wall itself looks rather odd when none of the participants can thrust.  Massed archery is a bit silly when high angled volleys aren't allowed.

Unless we actually try to kill each other with sharpened and properly weighted weapons then we have to compromise in some way. Reenactment weapons and fighting methods are not historically accurate - at least no more so than larp weapons and techniques. I often fight where thrusting is allowed and fighting takes on a different flavour. We fully intend to go up against shield walls when we are armed with bills. We will have archers we will establish effective tactics by trial and error and by taking advice from Tacitus.

Actually, 'formation' might be overstating the organisational virtues of the period.    Still, the approved methods of the period involve forming one or more lines of polearm troops and then having small groups of more heavily armoured elites for containing breaches.  One of the techniques Edward IV used involved putting the new recruits as the front line

Very many of the battle tactics of the day were very sophisticated and developed as a result of the troop types available and weapon/armour design. Also there were many political reasons that drove the generals to fight in the manner they did. Edward IV looked to the classics for inspiration as did many others in his period the tactics above are simply lifted from Roman legionary manuals.

We are looking to the year 1517. Cry Hurrah for good King Harry and St George!

Post #47820
Posted Friday, December 14, 2007 6:49 PM


Champion

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Smileyface (12/12/2007)
battlefield archery is a bit dull.


Based on what a couple of Medieval re-enactors have told me that's largely down to people not doing it properly. Apparently having a backup melee weapon, a bit o