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Heroic Knight
 
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Will Power (8/13/2007)
I do enjoy the homophobia in the hobby debate... (which incidentally would be perfectly placed in a homosexual forum  )
No it wouldn't, if it were there then I wouldn't be able to participate... I'm straight... I wouldn't know what you were talking about, I wouldn't be made aware of the problems you have, there would be nothing I could do to help, no contribution that I could make, and my opinions and experiances would be totally excluded.
Will Power (8/13/2007)
This is about a forum for a group of people who are for whatever reason we don't fully understand yet a certain way, who might feel left out in an environment where they are surrounded by people who, if they are less confident, they are afraid might object with a fundamental part of who they are, or if they are more confident not really care how everyone reacts but still feel out of place somehow. A forum for those people to come together and realise that they are not so isolated, and find some confirmation in themselves and perhaps feel more at home in a hobby they love.
Ah ok, in that case that "mission statement" is perfect for a subforum for us Teetotallers (you'd be surprised about the amount of verbal and occasionally physical abuse I've encountered just for being teetotal)....... and one for us with chronic illnesses..... and single parents (me again)... oh and even us smokers nowadays.... now we've started, where do we stop?
Its a nice statement, but it only useful if theres a real problem with real soloutions otherwise its just a way of creating a clique. If your aim is to create an enviroment where people don't feel out of place then surely segregating yourselves to start with is not the best way to achieve that aim?
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I'm a variable power wit.... sometimes full-on, sometimes only half....
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Wag
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Feral (8/13/2007)
Will Power (8/13/2007)
I do enjoy the homophobia in the hobby debate... (which incidentally would be perfectly placed in a homosexual forum )
No it wouldn't, if it were there then I wouldn't be able to participate... I'm straight... I wouldn't know what you were talking about, I wouldn't be made aware of the problems you have, there would be nothing I could do to help, no contribution that I could make, and my opinions and experiances would be totally excluded.
Not specifically excluded - most homosexual forums have a few straight posters at least. The problem is, as you point out, that much heterosexual experience is functionally irrelevant in a discussion of gay issues.
Ah ok, in that case that "mission statement" is perfect for a subforum for us Teetotallers (you'd be surprised about the amount of verbal and occasionally physical abuse I've encountered just for being teetotal)....... and one for us with chronic illnesses..... and single parents (me again)... oh and even us smokers nowadays.... now we've started, where do we stop?
You're on to something with the teetotaller thing - it's certainly a discussion that needs to be had. But a part of the problem is that LGBT people have their own culture, and they're not necessarily interchangeable with mainstream society. It's not just a matter of giving forums to oppressed minorities, is it? The only example you've given of a minority with something itself-specific to talk about is teetotallers. In fact, the more I think about it the more a forum for discussion as regards teetotal LRP seems a good idea.
PD - Brother Farael of the Ordo Dictum Dominus
EOS - Some Raggard Scum, previously Some Arimin Scum
6P - System creator (now retired), Andrei Treune of Clan Suner (for the moment)
RL - Will Robinson
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Wag
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Feral (8/13/2007)
There, does that make you angry?
I can't answer that for Nesciomancer, but I think you're missing the crucial distinction between _having an opinion_ and _publicly broadcasting an opinion in a sub-forum sanctioned by board organisers/members_. If an old lady in a care home confides in you that she thinks black people smell funny and cause cancer - you could explode, exhort her to Correct Opinions and squeeze her catheter bag until she understand the importance of tolerance. Or you could let it go - because she's very, very unlikely to be able to pass that opinion on to other people.
The difference between privately permissible opinions and publicly communicable ones is enormous and just glancing at what sort of things people are allowed to say outloud/what sort of opinions are allowed a sub-forum and which aren't gives you a very reasonable snap-shot of the constitution of the community (and hence whether you'll feel welcome or comfortable or border-line tolerated so long as you keep your mouth shut).
Feral (8/13/2007)
Which is why I have asked for clarification as to the nature and extent of the problem.
Fair enough, but no one seems to be claiming that assault is an issue/a concern.
Feral (8/13/2007)
Marios (8/13/2007)
Again, this is totally cheating. This is what I mean by rhetorical essentialising.Umm yes... of course... let me grab a dictionary...
It's nothing deeper than defining something as an 'essential' property of an object. "It is not my _opinion_ that Christ rose again. I am a Christian and _must_ by my essential nature reverence that fact. You're not disagreeing - you're blaspheming, which is an attack on my person.". You're not disagreeing with what I believe - you're disagreeing with _who I am_ and that is hateful! This is what I mean by denying debate (hide your politics inside your person!).
Marios
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Wag
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chalicier (8/13/2007)
Not specifically excluded - most homosexual forums have a few straight posters at least. The problem is, as you point out, that much heterosexual experience is functionally irrelevant in a discussion of gay issues.
People keep sliding into seeing it in terms of essence - you have the Queer Essence or you don't - rather than opinion "you support this lifestyle or you don't". One can comfortably be a monarchist without being a monarch - equally, one can be an anti-monarchist without necessarily wanting to gun down the Queen and dance in her skin.
Different people seem to have different impressions of what such a forum would be like - but the most coherent view seems to be the one laid out by Nesciomancer: a support group for Queer Larpers who may wish to let off steam within a narrower community than all larpers. I didn't get the impression that only people with the properly validated Queer Essence would be let in, but that only people who shared those views would feel comfortable. If someone posted about how upset they'd been when they realised that all the people in the tent with them didn't really approve of the Queer scene - anyone posting in reply "Well, they do have a point - I don't have anything against Queers anymore than I hate pornographers - but I do think it's a social ill and responsible people do have to at least register their disapproval. They didn't hit you - they were just honest about the fact that they disagreed." would probably not feel welcome.
Marios
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Wag
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Marios (8/13/2007)
chalicier (8/13/2007)
Not specifically excluded - most homosexual forums have a few straight posters at least. The problem is, as you point out, that much heterosexual experience is functionally irrelevant in a discussion of gay issues.
People keep sliding into seeing it in terms of essence - you have the Queer Essence or you don't - rather than opinion "you support this lifestyle or you don't". One can comfortably be a monarchist without being a monarch - equally, one can be an anti-monarchist without necessarily wanting to gun down the Queen and dance in her skin.
But that's really not my point; my point is that while straight people aren't de facto excluded from a gay forum, such a forum is going to regularly make reference to a lifestyle and experiences that Feral doesn't have. It's not a matter of Essence at all, more one of accumulated experience. Support doesn't really come into it; you can support the lifestyle all you want but it doesn't actually make you gay, and it doesn't give you the experiences a gay lifestyle would. Since the majority of discussions on message boards draw upon the contributor's experiences and knowledge of the issue, this is a very real problem for straight posters.
Now, there are bound to be issues that will move beyond this divide, and plenty of them; but the divide remains.
PD - Brother Farael of the Ordo Dictum Dominus
EOS - Some Raggard Scum, previously Some Arimin Scum
6P - System creator (now retired), Andrei Treune of Clan Suner (for the moment)
RL - Will Robinson
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Prodigal
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Feral (8/13/2007)
nesciomancer (8/13/2007)
To clarify- if people want to start a forum to discuss how difficult it is for them to larp in a system where there are queers all over the place, then they're free to do so (it's not as if there's actually anything I can do to stop them, in any case). But if it happened, I'd be angry, because it's not in MY (selfish) best interests for such a forum to exist.I've crewed a number of systems where as a straight male I've been in the minority, I've had my arse pinched more times that I care to recall, had more charm and glamour spellls cast on me than I can remember, I've been asked to play greased up half naked zombies, slaves, gladiators, I've been leashed, chained, caged, played loin cloth wearing barbarians and pole dancing incubuses and on a couple of occasions had to drag someone of to a quiet corner and politely remind them that I'm straight and not the slightest bit curious... There, does that make you angry? It does, in the sense that it sounds like you've met some insensitive people who need to be reminded of the importance of IC/OC boundaries (assuming that no one's asked your permission to invade your personal space like that- some people are up for that sort of roleplay even if they aren't attracted to the people involved, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable roleplaying in a system where people automatically assumed that I'd be happy with it). To clarify AGAIN (since I apparently didn't do so properly the last time)- I'd be angry if I found that there was a support group for larpers who are annoyed by the PRESENCE of openly queer people at events, rather than just being annoyed by the kind of behaviour they've encountered from certain queer people. I wouldn't have a problem with people who wanted to set up a larp system where overtly hitting on people is OC banned (although I'd feel uncomfortable if same-sex flirting was explicitly banned but opposite-sex flirting wasn't). Likewise, I wouldn't have a problem with a system which explicitly stated that it wants to support heavy IC flirting and so if you come to events you're assumed to have consented to being groped unless you explicitly tell people not to (not a system I'd join, but that's fine as long as the system designers are clear about their intentions). But I would have a problem with a system that stated, for example, that "since we've been having some problems with gay players sexually harassing people OC, this system will no longer allow gay men to larp here." This would make me angry for the entirely selfish reason that I don't want people to get the impression that this particular kind of discrimination is tolerated in the larp community. So, in this particular case, I'm intolerant (since I'm presuming the right to judge people based on the decisions they make on how to design their own events).
WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.
OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
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Heroic Knight
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chalicier (8/13/2007)
such a forum is going to regularly make reference to a lifestyle and experiences that Feral doesn't have. It's not a matter of Essence at all, more one of accumulated experience.
Hah, now there's a false divide if ever I heard one. The lives we live and have lived are all different and all individual and with the exclusion of Larp there's not one person let alone group of people on here who can claim a shared set of referances on lifestyle or experiance.
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I'm a variable power wit.... sometimes full-on, sometimes only half....
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Wag
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nesciomancer (8/13/2007)
To clarify AGAIN (since I apparently didn't do so properly the last time)- I'd be angry if I found that there was a support group forlarpers who are annoyed by the PRESENCE of openly queer people at events, notby their behaviour.
nesciomancer (8/13/2007)
If a debate on homophobia in larp started in the General Larp Discussion section of Rule 7, then I think the situation might end up similar to the discussion I just described- some people trying to say "I've experienced homophobia from larpers that made me really uncomfortable"
I'm sorry, but it feels like you're working very hard to force a false distinction here between the reasonable people who are offended by bad behaviour and just want somewhere to discuss it and the hateful people who are offended by people with the wrong sort of essence. I'm very much unconvinced that this distinction is meaningful - on this very thread people have happily ignored the distinction between 'homophobic beliefs' and 'homophobic behaviour' - it seems to me that if you have a place for Queers to let off steam about upsetting interactions with people with people with 'homophobic opinions' then we're talking about people who are annoyed by the PRESENCE of openly homophobic people at events (note - this is a hate term, not a neutral term).
Marios
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