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Squire
      
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James_Adamson (7/7/2006) Pricing: They've restructured it a bit now, so that there's some cheap stuff to suck you in, but then if you want the 'good' stuff, the powerful game winning stuff you'll pay through the nose for it. (The price is of course directly linked to the points value of the model) That's just patently wrong. I'm sorry. The price has no relation at all to the points value of the miniature. I can think of thousands of examples and, frankly, find the suggestion so ridiculous I can't be bothered to give you any in detail but lets just say check out Space Marine Dreadnought Vs Cadian Shock troops box, the dark elf chariot Vs the chaos warrior boxset or any number of other examples. It's not often I'll say this, and as a rule I try to avoid it, but on this point you're just plain wrong. Also the idea that it's the "Game Winning" stuff that is more expensive is a nonsense. If you can't win the game (which, incidentally, in't the be all and end all) with basic troops plus a couple of little extras then it's not to do with your budget but more to do with the quality of your play. Trust me, this is coming from experience of running countless small tournaments and being heavily involved in quite a few big ones, including the first ever Caledonian conflict. If you look at the winning armies they're the ones that make the best use of the normal rank and file not of some flashy super unit (which invariably don't earn their points cost back unless used REALLY well) Dumbing down. They have, big time, purely and simply to get them as young as possible. They've suck all the subtlety out of it. the game is a soulless shell of what it once was. Yikes! That's a little strong don't you think. They've sucked all the subtlety out of it? The game is a soulless shell of what it once was? Personally I think there's MORE subtlety in a simple system than what was (frankly) a way over complicated mess of contradictory rules which DID lead to a superunit wins every time mentality (Vortex grenades on Ragnar Blackmane anyone? Invulnerable Warp spiders? Up to 4 plasma cannons per unit of orks?) If you want an example of a subtle AND simple system , ladies and gentlemen I give you: *drumroll* CHESS Or is chess a "souless shell" of a game? It sounds like your arguements are all harkening back to the bad old times without looking at the bare, plain facts of what is actually going on now. They've made real steps forward. Are your arguements completely without merit? Not at all but I'd suggest you take another good look at GW as they are now and see if some of those arguements aren't just a little irrelevant now.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Magic is like shaving your armpits, harder than it looks PD - Chasca Cui, Hunahpa High Priest and Ball Ref RL - Dan
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Knight
      
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Coffmeister:
Nah the Land raider worries me far more than the Earthshaker. Earthshaker only gets 1 shot and is only gonna glance off my vehicles. Land raider is covered in guns and probably has 5 termies inside. Easy my priority target 
Mecha:
I'd suggest you take another good look at GW as they are now and see if some of those arguements aren't just a little irrelevant now.
Amen!
I do try and spell things right...
Dark Millenium: Unofficial Larp based on Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000.
"MADE OF SOLID MING"
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Heroic Knight
      
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As I've said before, my main problem with GW is that (in the past, at least) they blatantly couldn't be arsed playtesting a lot of their stuff... two examples: uno- Virus Outbreak special event card in 40K (could easily take an Ork or IG army down to 50%+ casualties, with a combination of susceptibility and their large numbers of troops which required dense deployment)
dos- Necromunda: In the early stages of a campaign, Close-Combat orientated gangs had a slight advantage, but between experienced teams, the long-rangers had such a massive advantage it was unbelievable... notice that in the expansion, the 'climate' (or whatever they were called) tables' results had a massive bias against the long-range special skills.
Oh, and the whole 'new armies are super hard to attract the powergamers' thing.
GW are the masters of one thing...
retconning.
I've heard reports that the new 40K Orks have an entirely different theme to the old 'chunky armour and spikes, comedy' Orks that we knew and loved.
Costume hippy, live and let live, peace and love for all, man!
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Heroic Knight
      
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Mecha Gouda (7/7/2006)That's just patently wrong. I'm sorry. The price has no relation at all to the points value of the miniature. I meant within a specific army.. (I should have been clearer) For example why are exarchs more expensive than aspect warriors?? Why do terminators cost more to buy than marines? why is a terminator captain/chaplain more expensive than a 'normal' terminator? Whay is eldrad ulthuan more expensive than a normal farseer? Its this kind of thing I was referring to. Yikes! That's a little strong don't you think. They've sucked all the subtlety out of it? indeed they have. No locations on vehicles any more, (you can't try and shoot out its tracks or similar). You can't do things like move units by sections because is part of a unit moves, it counts for all of it (which is quite frankly a total nonsence). Cover has no effect on how hard it is to hit you, (so if you have an armour save better than your cover it is for all intents and purposes not there). No saving throw modifiers, no difference in move statistic. Those are just the ones I can recall. The game is a soulless shell of what it once was? Personally I think there's MORE subtlety in a simple system than what was (frankly) a way over complicated mess of contradictory rules which DID lead to a superunit wins every time mentality Yep, for me at least there's no feel to it any more. (which I still feel when playing necromunda) They had the chance to consolidate all those rules and make something truely special, but instead they binned it for expediency. If you want an example of a subtle AND simple system , ladies and gentlemen I give you: *drumroll* CHESS Or is chess a "souless shell" of a game? I think its wrong to try to liken 40k with chess. GW lost me as a customer when they decided that the opinions of pre-pubescent schoolboys (OMG!!!! GW IS TEH COOL!!!11!!) were more important than mine. (And believe me, I would have been loyal for life) I'll go back to GW when they decide to stop treating me like a moron. (in terms of their pricing/rules/treatment by staff)
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Heroic Knight
      
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James_Adamson (7/8/2006) For example why are exarchs more expensive than aspect warriors?? Why do terminators cost more to buy than marines? why is a terminator captain/chaplain more expensive than a 'normal' terminator? Whay is eldrad ulthuan more expensive than a normal farseer? Its this kind of thing I was referring to.
I can give generic reasons... because they are frequently more detailed and usually have more challenging model-crafting going into making them producable. Ultimately: you have the same or greater development costs to produce the model, but are going to sell far fewer of them.
Economics says that makes it cost more.
indeed they have. No locations on vehicles any more, (you can't try and shoot out its tracks or similar). You can't do things like move units by sections because is part of a unit moves, it counts for all of it (which is quite frankly a total nonsence). Cover has no effect on how hard it is to hit you, (so if you have an armour save better than your cover it is for all intents and purposes not there). No saving throw modifiers, no difference in move statistic. Those are just the ones I can recall. Aggregation of units makes it possible to play bigger battles quicker and more fluidly... Stargrunt does it, too. Not a problem on my front... if you want to move the rest of the unit around the heavy weapon, then you put them in the the wrong place to start with: not their problem. And if you want to advance by sections, why not use different sections to do that with rather than splitting an existing one?
I like the image of Space Marines standing out in the open blazing away with their bolters while the Impy Guard huddle down behind every available wall for cover... and adding cover save to regular one would either be complex or broken, neither of which appeals.
No save mods saves time, makes it quicker in larger battles. Ditto standardised move distances: so Eldar don't move 5 any more... I'll live.
And you've forgotten the biggest simplification of all: being turn based. Go 'activation-based', preferably with a random-draw system...
Dave 2 / Man in Blue "I said it was impossible: I didn't say I couldn't do it."
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Apprentice
      
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i suppose when i played GW ou could call me a pre-pubesent boy. Having said this GW got me into rpg with warhammer roleplay and then i met a group of friends who did skaven roleplay. From this i started to play other rule set (D&D White wolf) and thus now happily landed in the world of Larping.
What put me off GW was not the price increases but the constant re-releases of models. As soon as i had an amry they re-released either the core rule book or released a new set of models for the army and updated its rules
PD Joshua Harven
RL Ben
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Heroic Knight
      
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Welcome to the wonder world of business.
Realy, complaining that GW keeps on making additions to it's product range, or "changing the army" shouldnt be a supprise. Games Workshop is a business and the only way a business continues to make money is to expand and improve upon it's existing products while looking to develope new ones.
GW have been a classic case of this. In addition to plowing money into plastic developement they have also pioneered the introduction computer aiden design into miniture wargame model making. (granted Cold Navy did that also, but given that the guy who ownes cold navy is looking to sell off the IP, it's not what i would class as an qualified success).
Celticknots the celt in notts
------------------------------------------------------------ Maelstrom: Wynne the Younger Serenity: Ref
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Heroic Knight
      
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Sugarpuff Sandwich (7/8/2006)
dos- Necromunda: In the early stages of a campaign, Close-Combat orientated gangs had a slight advantage, but between experienced teams, the long-rangers had such a massive advantage it was unbelievable... notice that in the expansion, the 'climate' (or whatever they were called) tables' results had a massive bias against the long-range special skills.
Well, yeah, i'd imagine that those would, but from experience i've found in general those enviromental penalties go a logn way to restricting movement, thus helping shooting gangs.
You've never seen the terror in a close combat gang than when he runs his entire gang across gangplanks (hehe) to find that your entire gang is on overwatch with frag grenades or hand flamers. 
Oh, and the whole 'new armies are super hard to attract the powergamers' thing.
Please, can we dismiss this rumour already?
Okay let me say the following.
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Witch hunters
Demon hunters
All of these are "new" armies in the scale of things which people didnt realy have minis for (save maybe witch hunters) but i dont think you'll find that the armies are any more powerfull than their contemporary cousins.[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------ Maelstrom: Wynne the Younger Serenity: Ref
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