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I do talk a good fight
 
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Last Login: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:41 PM
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OTOH, I would only be interested if there was a guarantee that people could be as critical & negative as they wanted, at least with my work. People telling me it's good isn't as helpful; I know it's good.
For me, the most crucial aspects of any writers' group, if it's to be effective in getting people writing and getting them to improve their writing, are as follows:
a) Strict deadlines. There's no point attempting to write unless you're doing 500 to 1000 words a day, every day, 6 or 7 days a week. That's assuming you have a day job and/or other commitments that mean you can only devote an hour or two to it a day; if you're lucky enough to be writing full-time, then obviously 3000 words or so is a better minimum. Given that, strict deadlines help encourage such a work rate; if you know that you'll be expected to submit (say) 10,000 words a month, minimum, for discussion & critiquing, the group might actually be helpful.
b) Critiques need to be line-by-line. That is, it doesn't help to just write "I liked this" or "It was shit" as your lone comment on an entire piece of work. Suggesting alternate uses of words, alternate punctuation, and potential areas for expansion/cutting, as well as pointing out any stylistic oddities, accidental tense changes, etc., is essential. Requiring each group member to submit a certain amount of comment on each submitted story is also useful.
c) Every serious writer needs to develop a thick skin. If you can't take your writing group's suggestions & criticisms, how will you cope with impersonal rejection letter after impersonal rejection letter? Stephen King had a metal spike in his study with all his rejection letters pinned to it; it took years, & hundreds of rejections, before he sold anything.
d) Quality control is useful. The least painful way to do that is to have a booklist & expect all the members of the group to have read & understood it; as essential books for every writer, I'd suggest Strunk's _Elements of Style_ and Stephen King's _On Writing_. The Strunk at least is absolutely crucial; it's a tiny & cheap book, but if you follow the recommendations in it you'll at least be writing in English. For novelists, add a copy of James Frey's _How To Write A Damn Good Novel_. The slightly more painful, but probably more efficient, way is to have each writer submit a story for consideration to some shadowy committee, who then decides if you're in or out of the group.
e) It's worth getting all these points, along with a non-disclosure agreement, into some kind of agreement thingummy, so that once everyone's agreed to them, anyone who consistently fails to meet deadlines (of either writing or critting) can be kicked out of the group without too much fuss.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Overlord
Group: Administrators
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Ian Sturrock (7/5/2007)
OTOH, I would only be interested if there was a guarantee that people could be as critical & negative as they wanted, at least with my work. People telling me it's good isn't as helpful; I know it's good.Agreed in part, but from my experience all writers need informed supportiv encouragement too. You might be self assured enough, but some aren't.
Ian Sturrock (7/5/2007)
a) Strict deadlines. There's no point attempting to write unless you're doing 500 to 1000 words a day, every day, 6 or 7 days a week. That's assuming you have a day job and/or other commitments that mean you can only devote an hour or two to it a day; if you're lucky enough to be writing full-time, then obviously 3000 words or so is a better minimum. Given that, strict deadlines help encourage such a work rate; if you know that you'll be expected to submit (say) 10,000 words a month, minimum, for discussion & critiquing, the group might actually be helpful.I disagree. Strict deadlines yes where possible, but encouraging people to write isn't about quantity. I don't particularly want to be involved in any workshop that involves that much commitment to writing. I have too many other things to do and I'm sure many other people do as well. Creative Writing degree courses do not have those kind of requirements. I'm interested in putting people together and getting a bit of informed criticism going. If its helpful to people, then great, there's a reason for it continuing, but these things need to evolve so that they have a pace of their own.
Ian Sturrock (7/5/2007)
b) Critiques need to be line-by-line. That is, it doesn't help to just write "I liked this" or "It was shit" as your lone comment on an entire piece of work. Suggesting alternate uses of words, alternate punctuation, and potential areas for expansion/cutting, as well as pointing out any stylistic oddities, accidental tense changes, etc., is essential. Requiring each group member to submit a certain amount of comment on each submitted story is also useful.Again, I'm not interested in being that formal or strict.
Ian Sturrock (7/5/2007)
c) Every serious writer needs to develop a thick skin. If you can't take your writing group's suggestions & criticisms, how will you cope with impersonal rejection letter after impersonal rejection letter? Stephen King had a metal spike in his study with all his rejection letters pinned to it; it took years, & hundreds of rejections, before he sold anything.Agreed you should see my pile, but everyone takes their own path to that thick skin. Plus, we aren't commissioning publishers, so as I see it writing groups are about helping and supporting people to get there. Agreed on the book reccomendations.
Ian Sturrock (7/5/2007)
e) It's worth getting all these points, along with a non-disclosure agreement, into some kind of agreement thingummy, so that once everyone's agreed to them, anyone who consistently fails to meet deadlines (of either writing or critting) can be kicked out of the group without too much fuss.Interesting idea, not sure how I feel about that.
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:41 PM
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Fair enough, no worries, looks like I need a different group. 
My DIY face-to-face writing group has evaporated 'cos my old writing buddy just moved a couple of hundred miles away, so I am in need of something new along those lines.
If you agree with the book recommendations, I'm surprised you disagree with some of the other stuff I said, which is straight out of Stephen King (but fits with my own experiences too).
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Overlord
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| LOL just cos I think people should read em doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. Stephen King also said no-one can be taught how to write. If he's literally correct I shouldn't really have a job. Try Lisa Tuttle, Brian Stableford and Terry Brooks (Sometimes the Magic Works). All are a bit less intense. Christopher Vogler is also great for structure as is Vladimirr Propp.
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:41 PM
Posts: 1,870,
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I don't believe Terry Brooks can teach me anything about writing, or indeed, anything about anything. I'll look out for the others, though.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Champion
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:58 AM
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I see what both of you are saying. While I might not survive a group run by sturrocks rules(TM) I would need something.
It wouldn't have to be done via this forum. I am more interested in knowing if there would be a focus on any kind of writing. e.g if I wanted to put in scenes from films I'm doing would that also be acceptable. If someone else wanted to submitt poetry, I couldn't really comment.
Here is a group I belonged to a few years ago. People submitt work when they want, but to stay in the group you must write X amount of crits per week. The argument being that if you want to have your work viewed you must be willing to do the same for others.
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:41 PM
Posts: 1,870,
Visits: 5,835
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A lot depends on what you want out of the group. If you just want a chance to chat about writing, and get other people's opinions on your writing, a Stroud Rules group will be fine. If you have a serious intent to get published, I'm not sure a Stroud Rules group will help a great deal, if at all; it may even hinder things. If you have a serious intent to get published, you need to do a serious amount of work; treat it as a 2nd job, rather than as a hobby. Given that, you need a serious group, or to work alone. A Stroud Rules group, in that case, will be a distraction at best. In my opinion, obviously.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Heroic Knight
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Last Login: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:24 PM
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I don't tend to write outside of fluff for rulebooks and scenario backgrounds, if things get rolling I'd appreciate people willing to run an eye over things I kick out.
__________________________
"It's not Mordenkainen's, it's mine."
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