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Champion
 
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coffmeister (5/23/2007)
Any solution found must: Embrace the concept that calls should be minimised. (Kept to 1/10s/player within tightly specified limits). Not rely on armour skills to be part of the game (as that's innovative and interesting) Help preserve the game balance (so that armour is more than just particularly heavy costume or an active penalty).
All good, now its easrly and i dont get a lot of what ur saying below so ill ask where im not sure, it will probably make sence later, i hate the mornings
It seems to me that disarm and through are there to help specialist combat characters "not suck" in comparison to non-specialists. It's a slight edge, but significant.
thats the plan  How good you want to make armour depends on what sort of look you want to see. Currently "heavy armour" (which btw will need a definition, preferably with illustrations) is very good, but is prohibited from being full plate. Layering* armour seems like the most sensible thing to me. After all, if you can't have full heavy, why not use heavy and chain? Armour lets you live.
im not sure u get the idea of no full plate, its as in a design thing, im sure i read this in the rules somwheer, but it might be sacttered arround the place, so if what im saying is new i apoligise it simply means we dont wnat plate with articulation, i supose is the best way of putting it, so you can eare the metal plates on thighs and shins, just not the articulated bit over the knees which neame i have forgotten in my morning haze, chain will be couning as the highest level of armour i believe Two problems with "no physrep no armour" on the festival scale are: 1) 19 variable counting, whilst doable, whilst learnable, is a bit harsh to do in a fight, even with nice short times for repair. I suppose one could get round this by making people who _aren't_ wearing layered armour sing "The Sound of Music" so they had to be doing something that wasn't fighting (remembering music versus changing variables) whilst fighting, but that seems a bit silly.
why would making non armoud people sing help anyone? ah i get it, morning haze fadeing, to balance out the people who have to count, do you realy think that its that bad, i mean it was common lrp system in the past, thats fallen out of use, but it was never realy hard to do 2) It means that if you have two skilled fighters, the one with less armour has an advantage in speed _and_ locations that can be attacked. The heavier armoured fighter has to wear his armour all the time and is penalised IC and OOC by the slower movement that relates. Since they can't wear full plate, they get _most_ of the weight and only _a bit_ of the protection.
less armour gives you an advantage in speed, and a disadvantage that wher the armour is has less hits, coverage shoulnt be seen as an advantage or not, as thats a costume design choice. The hevier armour is penalised by speed, but gets the advantage of hits, again location covered is a costume design choice, and they dont have to wear it all the time If I was an organiser, I'd go with 50% and "the uncovered back" rule and have pictures and/or drawings of typical examples of what I meant. Then if someone decided to violate rule 7 both refs and players would pick them up. The uncovered back ruleIf your torso, the backs of your legs or arms is NOT covered by your armour to at least 50%, those locations are NOT counted as armoured.
so you need the front of a location and 50% of the back to count as armour, so 75% coverage? or you just need 50% of the back coverd, morning hurts my head?
Which would let people take their chances with not wearing a back plate, but would mean they wouldn't feel the need for "full plate" or some sort of unsatisfactory and/or complicated compromise. [quote] but if they dont wear a back plate, their front isnt armoured? help [quote]
This would avoid layering, be easier to monitor on a fest scale and still allow people to have cool physreps for stuff.
*Layering btw as in the sense of, if you don't have enough heavy, you use medium or light instead, not the travesty that is "I'm wearing full light over my breastplate" which quite frankly is asking for trouble.
explain this more i realy just dont get wher ur comming from at all? its to early i don think we have thought about layering armour, i quite like addinf an extra hit per layer of real honest to goodness armour you are wearing added to the outermoast layer so if ur wearing a breastplate with chain under, and heavy quilting under you get breastplate + 2 hits is that what we are talking about?
I would ask about categories of armour as that's something that I've noticed is abused a lot, but that's something to solve with pictures and non-written descriptions.
i think its going to be- armour has to look like its designed as armour, so clothing wont count 1 pt armour - heavy quilting, and decent leathers 3 pt armour - awsome leather+ leather with lots of reinforcement 6pt armout - chain, plate all metal gubbins im sure i reda that somwhere but cant fid ti, so feel free to start talking about it
www.mandalastudios.co.uk www.kangena.co.uk RL - Mark (Coventry)
CP - Urtsi (Ael) [Ex Head Weapons Checker/ Ref]
Mandala - Wookie (Ref/ Props)
PD - Wookie (Ref)
GF - Organiser
Dark Secrets - Philip Stanley (Tech Assistant)
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and Minimeister
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| Hi Mark, I think I shall leave the armour thing for a while and let it simmer on my mental "back burner". The point about articulated plate is taken to heart and I'll try my best to see if I can find a way to simplify armour without needing a degree in accountancy to wear it.  It's not just the "morning haze" that's at fault.  Anyway, here are some call definitions for people who not up for "armour froth". I thought I'd put these up for discussion as possibilities of my understanding of current "best practice". I'd be interested in seeing what's worth tearing apart here. The calls that are listed (my suggestions are in brackets) but are currently undefined are: (Negate) Crush Disarm Through Strikedown "ThroughLocationToZero" Stun Pain Strength (Global) (Mass) What is known is: that they will do things similar to existing calls. They also require at least ten seconds of combat to prior to each call. (We'll assume that it will be made explicit that having called one call after ten seconds, you can't immediately call a different one, e.g. fight ten seconds, "Through! Crush!" but rather fight 10, "through", fight 10 "crush".) I'll also assume that you have a limited number of these/day. The obvious exception is "ThroughLocationToZero" which is an archery specific call that I will come back to later. So, having assumed that they all have the "10 second rule" in effect. I will also note that I don't find talk of these blows being "parried" convincing because of timing difficulties. Impossible to legislate about. I would also assume that these skills do not work on shields unless otherwise specified. I also define "blocking" as putting your weapon in the path of a blow and "parrying" as redirecting the force of a blow to go elsewhere thus missing you. Negate, if you are specifically immune to the exact call that has been made against you, then you must call negate when hit by that call or your immunity will be ineffective. e.g. you are wearing Borin's Armour, immune to crush. When struck with a crush you must call negate or the armour is treated as crushed. Through, a strike that goes through armour removing one body hit on the location struck. Disarm, by striking a weapon you cause your opponent to drop it. (ed. I would still prefer lesser and greater disarm for use on single and two handed weapons as I feel the skill sets would be different. Talk of hitting me in the thumb is fine, but I can neither stab you nor kick you in the crotch, therefore I submit that this is a soft skill.) Strikedown, a strike that knocks you down. This cannot be blocked by single handed weapons and attempts to do so will prevent the damage but not the effect. Blocking with a shield will prevent the damage but not the effect. Blocking with a two handed weapon will be ineffective unless you are able to call back "Strength" (see below). You must drop to the floor, taking both the soles of your feet off the floor at the same time. Please roleplay this effect. Crush, a strike that destroys all armour on the location hit. can not be used with singlehanded weapons , will only remove one body hit. Will not affect shields. Armour that has been crushed takes double the time to repair/Armour that has been crushed may only be repaired by a skilled crafter. (Depending on whether only crafters can repair armour) I would say that AFAIK from other games Stun == Pain, therefore have only one call, Stun (to avoid confusion with "bane" for LT players) Stun X, you are in great pain for X seconds and are unable to do much more than fight and scream incoherently. If you have "Stun resistance Y" then you are stunned for X-Y seconds, i.e. if you are hit with Stun 3 and have Stun Resistance 2 then you are only stunned for 1 second. Please roleplay being unable to run, leap about or attack for this time. You may defend yourself against further blows. If struck on an armoured location lose one point of armour and roleplay the effect as normal. Strength, you are twice as strong as two people. You may "lift" "unconscious" or otherwise unresisting characters on your own by saying "Strength, Lift" and carry them for some distance. Strength in unarmed combat and grappling [Pre-req to throw skill?] You may call negate against attempts to grapple you by a single character using "Strength, grapple" and if you have the appropriate skill you may use "Strength grapple". e.g. If three people grapple you, you are grappled. If two people, one of whom has strength grapple you, you are grappled. I add these two in because I like my systems complete and you never know what's going to be handy. They're not calls, more prefixes and are yoinked from LT. Global: This prefix affects Through, Crush and "vital" (see below). All locations are treated as if struck with the second half of the call. E.g. Global Vital, all body locations are taken to zero. (Ooh, nasty.) Please note that unless your immunity specifically states that you are immune to Global X then you are effected in exactly the same way. Mass: This prefix affects a circular area of radius 10m (30 ft). It may be attached to: Negate, Strikedown, (Crush?), (Through?). Everyone in the area is affected.
NOTES:Because strikedown has been downgraded due to only being usable once/10s I felt that Crush and Disarm should also be downgraded and/or split into two level effects I wouldn't like to see: knockback/repel because that's something that is generally poorly roleplayed and because it's a great way to throw yourself into a tree, other players. It's most commonly used against shield walls and never works properly there anyway. Also with the 10s rule in effect, it's no use for keeping from being mobbed. If you want to keep from being mobbed get Stun 5. Archery: Probably put in the standard gubbins about 30lb limit, seeing a ref before using a bow in game I feel that this area deserves separate treatment because I'm unsure what the goals are here. Currently: all missile (but not thrown?) weapons do "through". Any character may use a crossbow, but pistol crossbows are explicitly banned. Bow use 1 means that a character may use a bow which automatically does through. Bow use 2 means that a character may use a bow to do "Strikedown" against a character in shouting range. Bow use 3 means that a character has an unspecified skill which takes the location hit to zero body points (and presumably goes through armour, but not shields?) I propose "Vital" because it's pretty nasty and "Fatal" has other connotations Vital, this effect ignores armour. The location struck is now on zero body hits although armour is unaffected. (Siege weapons like Ballistae and catapaults should be considered because there's always some that bring a physrep. Knowing the calls or providing ref support for them would be handy. Say a hit by a catapault boulder does "global vital" to the target and "mass strikedown" to everyone next to them, a ballista would probably just do "global vital")
There is only overconfidence and terror.
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Squire
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Good god.
You are over-complicating things again.
Crush (after 10 seconds of play, a player may attempt a crush. If he/she strikes an armoured location and calls crush, that location's armour is destroyed. If the location is unarmoured, that location drops to 0 hit points.)
Strikedown (After 10 seconds of play, a player may attempt a strikedown. If he/she strikes a location on the oponent's body, the opponent must fall to the ground with their back hitting the floor.)
Through (If you are hit by someone calling through, the damage is taken directly on your body hits, ignoring armour)
Grappling - 3 people may grapple another person by laying a hand on them and saying “we are grappling you” (That's straight from the rulebook and doesn't need changing)
Strength (If you are hit with strength, you must fall to the ground with your back hitting the floor regardless of whether you have parried/blocked with a sheild or not)
Knockdown (See strikedown, but called with arrows/bolts)
Loc Zero or possibly Vital (The struck body part goes to 0 ignoring armour)
No Effect (Called when a player is immune to a particular effect)
Stun and Pain have not been defined yet, so there's no point in discussing them yet. (And boohoo to LT players that get confused with Bane... it's not in the system. Read the rulebook before you play please.)
CP Player of much reknown.
Used to play Jimmy the Fish at LT.
Man of many knots.
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and Minimeister
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 I'm all for simplicity, but I also like to anticipate questions that pop up immediately in play. Oh, BTW, NONE of these calls have been defined (except by me), so I'm interested in seeing what other people understand by them.Coll (5/24/2007)
Crush (after 10 seconds of play, a player may attempt a crush. If he/she strikes an armoured location and calls crush, that location's armour is destroyed. If the location is unarmoured, that location drops to 0 hit points.)So, single handed mace is ok to use with it? Doesn't work on shields, right? Will it unbalance the game?
Strikedown (After 10 seconds of play, a player may attempt a strikedown. If he/she strikes a location on the oponent's body, the opponent must fall to the ground with their back hitting the floor.) So, shields are really good? Cool. And if I block your swing then I'm fine? Awesome.
Through (If you are hit by someone calling through, the damage is taken directly on your body hits, ignoring armour) This is what I said. Grappling - 3 people may grapple another person by laying a hand on them and saying “we are grappling you” (That's straight from the rulebook and doesn't need changing) I wasn't changing it. I was seeing how it interacted with "Strength". Ref: my post.
Strength (If you are hit with strength, you must fall to the ground with your back hitting the floor regardless of whether you have parried/blocked with a sheild or not) So.... Strength is "Strikedown plus affects shields"? Why have both of them? Does it help you move "injured" characters? How does it work with unarmed combat?
Knockdown (See strikedown, but called with arrows/bolts) Same effect, different name? Gee. That doesn't seem "simpler" to me. That seems like unnecessary complication.
Loc Zero or possibly Vital (The struck body part goes to 0 ignoring armour) What I said.
No Effect (Called when a player is immune to a particular effect) So... the same as Negate? So... what I said.
Stun and Pain have not been defined yet, so there's no point in discussing them yet. (And boohoo to LT players that get confused with Bane... it's not in the system. Read the rulebook before you play please.) *smiles patiently* NONE of these calls have been defined (except by me), so I'm interested in seeing what other people understand by them. See my post. I'm FOR simplification. I'm AGAINST redundancy. I'm FOR self-reffing by players wherever possible, I'm AGAINST introducing calls because the ref team decide they need "silver, unholy, sharp" etc and then don't bother to tell the players what they mean and when they should be called. Try approaching this with fresh eyes and thinking, it won't hurt, honest.
There is only overconfidence and terror.
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Champion
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| DISARM (AFTER 10 SECONDS OF ACTIVE COMBAT, A CHRACTER WITH THE APPROPRATE SKILL MAY ATTEMPT A DISARM, IF HE/SHE STRIKES EITHER THE WEAPON ARM OR WEAPON OF THE OPPONENT AND CALLS DISARM, THEY MUST DROP THEIR WEAPON (IF THE HIT IS TO THE ARM THEY STILL TAKE THE POINT OF DAMAGE AS NORMAL) THIS CALL SHOULD BE MADE AS THE BLOW IS ATTEMPTED (I THINK THIS SHOULD BE DOABLE WITH ANYTHING TO ANYTHING, AS I KNOW WAYS TO DISARM MOST THINGS WITH MOST THINGS,(THE TECHNIQUES VEARY, BUT THE END RESULT IS SIMALAR) THE ONLY POSSIBL EXCAPTION WOULD BE WEAPONS THAT ARE HELD WITH HANDS SEPERATE, THEY ARE MUCH HARDER TO DISARM, BUT THATS A LEVEL OF COMPLICATION I DONT THINK ADDS
Crush (after 10 seconds of ACTIVE COMBAT, a CHRACTER WITH THE APPROPIATE SKILL may attempt a crush. If he/she strikes an armoured location and calls crush, that PIECE OF armour is RENDERED USELESS UNTILL REPAIRED/ ADJUSTED. If the location is unarmoured, that location drops to 0 hit points.) IF YOU BLOCK/ PARRY THIS PLEASE ROLEPLAY THE FACT YOU HAVE BLOCKED/ PARRIED A BIG SMACK THIS CALL SHOULD BE MADE AS THE BLOW IS ATTEMPTED
Strikedown (After 10 seconds of ACTIVE COMBAT, a CHRACTER WITH THE APPROPRIATE SKILL may attempt a strikedown. If he/she strikes THE oponent (ARMOURED OR NOT), the opponent must fall to the ground with their back hitting the floor.) IF YOU BLOCK/ PARRY THIS PLEASE ROLEPLAY THE FACT YOU HAVE BLOCKED/ PARRIED A BIG SMACK IE TAKE A STEP BACK THIS CALL SHOULD BE MADE AS THE BLOW IS ATTEMPTED
Through (If you are hit by someone calling through, the damage is taken directly on your body hits, ignoring armour) THIS CALL SHOULD BE MADE AS THE BLOW IS ATTEMPTED
Strength (If you are hit with strength, you must fall to the ground with your back hitting the floor regardless of whether you have parried/blocked with a sheild or not) THIS THE THE SAME EFFECT AS STRIKEDOWN SO SHOULD PROBABLY BE CALLED AS STRIKEDOWN SO BATTLE TRAINING 1 SHOULD PROTECT AGAINST STRIKE DOWN AS IFF YOU HAD PARRIED IT, IE TAKE A STEP BACK OR SOMTHING
Knockdown (See strikedown, but called with arrows/bolts) SHOULD JUST BE STRIKEDOWN
Loc Zero or possibly Vital (The struck body part goes to 0 ignoring armour) I LIKE VITAL FOR THIS
No Effect (Called when a player is immune to a particular effect)
Stun and Pain have not been defined yet, so there's no point in discussing them yet. (And boohoo to LT players that get confused with Bane... it's not in the system. Read the rulebook before you play please.) BUT THEY WONT, I DONT, SO ANYTHING TO MINAMISE CONFUSION IS GOOD, THAT SAID I LIKE THE PAIN CALL ANOTHER THINK IM THINKG AT THE MO, (KINDA ROBBED FROM PD) IS DISCUSSING CHANGING WEAPON SKILL 3 FROM "CRUSH" TO "THE WEILLDER CAN USE A CRAFTERD WEAPONS SPECIAL CALL" LARGE BLUNT - STRIKEDOWN
LARGE AXE - SHATTER SHIELD
LARGE SWORD - CRUSH
SPEAR - VITAL
SMALL WEAPON - ??? IDEAS PLEASE
www.mandalastudios.co.uk www.kangena.co.uk RL - Mark (Coventry)
CP - Urtsi (Ael) [Ex Head Weapons Checker/ Ref]
Mandala - Wookie (Ref/ Props)
PD - Wookie (Ref)
GF - Organiser
Dark Secrets - Philip Stanley (Tech Assistant)
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I haven’t got access to the rules at work I’m afraid, so if it has been mentioned in them I apologise. With all these special damage calls I’m assuming the player must state the call before they make the attacking blow?
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