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Wag
 
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maslow (3/14/2008)
I wonder how many people could kill their own meat, after raising the animal from birth?Not me!People say that, but its just a matter of what your used to. See it when your a kid and you know thats where meat comes from, always have... its less of an issue. As an adult takes you longer to adjust.... frankly I dont think you should eat meat if you arent prepared to do the killing. I think that after initial squeamishness most folk would do so quite readily....
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Wag
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Flannel (3/19/2008)frankly I dont think you should eat meat if you arent prepared to do the killing. I think that after initial squeamishness most folk would do so quite readily.... I'd probably kill and prep an animal if I had to but the thing is I don't have to. Saying that people should not eat meat if they arent prepared to do the killing, to me is rather like saying don't use the toilet if you aren't prepared to work in a sewerage plant! There are many unpleasant tasks that others have to perform so that we can lead pleasant wasteful sedentary lives.
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Heroic Knight
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| I'm confident I could kill an animal, assuming someone would walk me through the process...as chasing after a chicken with my sledgehammer would just be inefficient. But to claim you should be able to kill an animal in order to justifiably consume it seems wrong. It's a view I used to hold myself, until I realised that we're in a society where we don't *have* to do those things. If we'd lived hundreds of years ago, we'd likely be happy to kill animals, because we'd have been raised differently...so is this really a fair statement. Most urbanites' encounters with living animals (I suspect) are as pets - evoking a certain view of animals. I suspect that many people from rural/farming areas would have a slightly different view...?
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Wag
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| It's such a bollocks argument really- where would you draw the line? If you can't mine that coal you shouldn't be burning it, if you cant refine that oil you shouldn't have a car, did you build that house? No! well back to cardboard city for you my lad ( you can pulp wood can't you?). There'd be a lot of dead vegans.
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Prodigal
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People seem to be conflating 'can't' and 'won't'.
The sensible argument that I think is being presented is that if you would be unwilling to kill an animal for food on moral / ethical / squeamishness grounds, you are being a hypocrite if you eat meat.
This is not the same as 'you should personally kill any animal you intend to eat' or 'you need to be physically able to kill any animal you intend to eat'. As long as you understand and accept that by eating meat you are morally and ethically killing animals (and indeed putting them through whatever methods of farming the animals you're eating were put through), and you're fine with this, then it is not hypocritical to eat meat, even if you have never actually touched a meat animal yourself, never mind killed it.
(There's a whole separate argument as to whether being a hypocrite is wrong and why this is the only way people use to prove something is wrong, but I don't think you want me to derail the thread onto that.)
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Prodigal
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The argument that "if you wouldn't be able to kill it yourself, you shouldn't be willing to eat it" holds some water, I guess. I tend to diverge around the point where it seems that killing something legitimates eating it -- or that killing something to eat absolves you of moral greyness. I could kill an animal in order to eat it -- however, I don't believe that being able to do something means that you should do that thing.
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Prodigal
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Marios (3/13/2008)
[quote]If there was a broad consensus on ethics, then there would be no need for a political constitution with checks and balancesYou're aware, of course, that the UK does not have such a constitution as such, right? Anyhow, assume that there was a broad consensus on ethics -- that doesn't mean that everyone would behave in accordance with those ethics! It would just mean that there was widespread agreement about right and wrong. People still do wrong stuff. Marios (3/13/2008)
[quote]Hate the Sin/Love the Sinner.What's with the desire to Christianise my veganism, dude?
Marios (3/13/2008)
[quote]This sounds like some confusing sort of reversed-Calvinist salvation theory (damnation is binary, but salvation is continuous?).I don't buy into damnation or salvation, as it goes, but nevertheless... The mention of vegans being "less morally bankrupt" than ovo-lacto-veggies is where this started. I stated the argument, as I saw it (i.e. as a continuum), on one hand, and then repudiated it (on the basis of bankruptcy being binary -- you either are or aren't, you can't be a bit bankrupt).
Marios (3/13/2008)
[quote]The Fairtrade logo is branding, pure and simple. It leaves it up to the individual to decide whether or not they believe Fairtrade is actually ethical in any meaningful sense (plenty of economists say no).But plenty of others say it is. *shrug*
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Joe Rooney, the Enemy Of Fun
Insurrection LRP: high fantasy in a dystopian setting. First event: 24-26 October 2008, in Leicestershire. Book online!
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Prodigal
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DG> (3/15/2008)[hrI also find it strange that people consider it somehow "wrong" to eat animals and yet fine to mass farm plants and fungi with farming techniques that have far more impact on the environment.. Plants,fungi and animals are all living organisms and all deserve the same considerations, to not do so is short sighted and creates an artificial benchmark for what we think of as a living creature. It's not about "living creatures," it's about animals. I don't deny that plants are alive! I ought to point out here that the overwhelming bulk of mass-farmed plants and fungi are produced to feed the livestock industry... It takes five times as much land (on average) to feed a meat-eater than it does to feed a vegan. Livestock are responsible for huge quantities of the carbon emissions that are so popular in the news these days (some experts say even more than the transport industry!) I'm against a lot of industrial farming. I do, however, recognise that industrialisation is probably necessary to feed the huge human and animal populations of the world. That means removing the really bad problem areas first -- hence veganism. You're right about many people having lost their relationship with food, though. I really only "discovered" food when I first went veggie and actually had to start thinking about it.
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Joe Rooney, the Enemy Of Fun
Insurrection LRP: high fantasy in a dystopian setting. First event: 24-26 October 2008, in Leicestershire. Book online!
Bladelands: Raoul Ortez - heretic, medium, bodyguard and scumbag
EOS: staff (probably the best job in LRP!)
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