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Prodigal
 
Group: Eos Staff
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H (3/11/2008)
I like vegans.
They do not have the moral bankruptcy of vegetarians.
I wouldn't say ovo-lacto-vegetarians are morally bankrupt; they have considerably more moral capital (in the eating account, anyway) than your average carnivore. It is, however, an incomplete position; so is the carnivorism (is that a word?) of most "normal" people, as they won't eat animals that have cutesy-wootsy liddle faces. Or whatever.
By the by, it's not about whether food is capable of movement. It's just that the miracle power of science has drawn a line down the middle of multi-cellular organisms. On one side, the plants, with their freakish cell walls. On the other, the animals, with their rock'n'roll cell membranes. My choice is not to piss in my own backyard, and munch only those wally freaks.
---
Joe Rooney, the Enemy Of Fun
Insurrection LRP: high fantasy in a dystopian setting.
Bladelands: Raoul Ortez - heretic, medium, bodyguard and scumbag
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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raggedhalo (3/12/2008). On one side, the plants, with their freakish cell walls. On the other, the animals, with their rock'n'roll cell membranes. My choice is not to piss in my own backyard, and munch only those wally freaks. Aye... buts its a wobbly old line that one and subject to constant discussion. Fruitarians are less morally bankrupt in that they seem to go for equal sanctity of life.... of course a lot of them are rather ill as well... *shrugs*
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
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Humans evolved to be omnivorous. Arguably we've now evolved mentally & spiritually to the point where we believe that eating dead flesh is wrong... but only some of us have evolved that far. Those who have, should feel sympathy for barbarians like me, who still relish a rare steak, or one of Nigella's juicy, tender thighs with lemons & garlic. 
I agree that vegetarianism is generally far less ethically defensible than veganism, since most vegetarians just get their protein from dairy sources, or eggs, which means their food choices are still directly contributing to & causing animal cruelty.
Strict veganism involves eating (generally) rather bland & unhealthy food. It doesn't have to, but it generally does. Most people enjoy food way too much to ever become vegans, even if they might be sympathetic to the "cause".
Most of us are way better off looking into ways to get ethically produced meat (organic, free range, grass-fed, etc.), and use meat more sparingly, than just go veggie or vegan. Hugh's "River Cottage Meat Book" is still far & away the best starting point for an ethical diet, for most people.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Prodigal
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Me, I eat meat and I enjoy it. Life without meat? No thanks. It would be like not having sugar in my Tea. It might not be good for me, or the environment, but if it had a face I prefer it on my plate than if it didn't. I'm not knocking those that, for whatever reason, don't want to do what I do. Long as they don't make Me eat it.
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Wag
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Ian Sturrock (3/13/2008)
Arguably we've now evolved mentally & spiritually to the point where we believe that eating dead flesh is wrong...
Not really an option unless you photosynthesise (or use nuclear power to resynthesise bodily wastes). Or join VEHEMENT.
Ian Sturrock (3/13/2008)
I agree that vegetarianism is generally far less ethically defensible
Ian Sturrock (3/13/2008)
ethically produced meat ... an ethical diet
I don't like the way 'ethical' has become popular as an adjective. The implication seems to be that there's one internationally agreed form of ethics - it's even got it's own unit SI unit of measure, the ethicalory (Ec) (burn a kilogram of pig and see how many particles of Suffering it produces?).
While I wouldn't agree, at least I'd see where people were coming from if it were the same people who argued that there is one true source of Ethics and agree that while not everyone signs on now, if they have a chance to read these scriptures they will eventually come round. The 'secular' version retains all the narrowness of interpretation but goes one better by refusing to even admit that there are reasonable people who don't agree - I'm so obviously right, you can't possibly be disagreeing with me - debate would only pander to your delusion!
It's a movement that seems to go hand-in-hand with the sudden creation of the 'professional ethicists'. Not people who spend their time studying the various different ethical systems spanning cultures/periods/classes/groups - people who have somehow got away with declaring themselves experts in Rightness and are in some elevated position to inform the public/consult with companies and tell them what sort of behaviour is Most Ethical. Basically, unlabelled, untrained, unchosen Bishops-for-all. I despise these people with a hatred whose magnitude warps space and time itself.
Marios
P.S. Obvious examples - imagine if Halal and Kosher food packaging was translated (not unreasonably, I think) as Moral and Ethical. After all, there's nothing unreasonable in assuming that all reasonable people are Muslim/Jewish, right? People who want to be eat Immorally/Unethically are still able to do that, just so long as they tacitly admit that disobeying Allah/Jehovah makes them bad people.
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:45 AM
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I agree that ethics are better seen as personal, rather than as something that there's one rigidly defined standard for. Still, I also recognise that language evolves, and if the shorthand these days is "ethically produced meat", that's the shorthand I'll use.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Wag
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Ian Sturrock (3/13/2008)
I agree that ethics are better seen as personal, rather than as something that there's one rigidly defined standard for. Still, I also recognise that language evolves, and if the shorthand these days is "ethically produced meat", that's the shorthand I'll use.
Language evolves in step with culture. Keeping private morality in the private space is largely about preventing people from conflating, say, "Christian morality" with "morality". It doesn't require any great histrionics, just a refusal to let people hijack language. Failing to call such attempts out is how you surrender public space and allow private norms to be accepted as public norms. It's to be expected that people who believe in those private norms will try to institute them as public norms - you can't make that go away short of internment camps and secret police - but you can at least make sure that they can't preach without being labelled as preachers and compelled to try to argue their position (as a position rather than just 'right-thinking').
If you're not bothered by any flavour of preaching, then obviously it's not relevant to you - but if you vigorously oppose some flavours of preaching while tacitly supporting others then you're open to accusations of (strategically very well justified) hypocrisy, unless you're clear that it's not preaching you oppose, but preaching beliefs other than yours. This is something that the vast majority of religious people I've met seem to grasp intuitively (possibly because it's something that they've been taught to think about - possibly because it's something that's been forced on British people due to the last couple of hundred years of history) - but people who don't identify as religious often combine accusations of the awful bigotry of religious people with an even more palpably impressive bigotry (I'm right, you think you're righteous!).
If people want to be Preachers, that's fair enough - even if you don't agree you can at least engage with them as people who Preaching a creed. What's annoying is when people combine an aggressive Anti-Preaching line whenever someone who thinks differently is preaching with Preaching whenever it looks like they won't be opposed/called on it. It's such an obviously good strategy that it merits heavy and consistent reproach if it's not to dominate.
Marios
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I do talk a good fight
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:45 AM
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Thanks for allowing me the "I refuse to answer your accusations, in case you expose my extremely clever strategic use of preaching/non-preaching/whatever it is you're accusing me of" get-out, as it means I don't have to get into another head-hurting argument with you.
Er, I mean, YES. I'm deeply strategic. I'm subtly preaching the One True Way of Hugh. Everyone who doesn't watch the River Cottage TV shows, all the time, is some kind of sub-human monster, and deserves a fate worse than death, though obviously it would need to be an ethically and politically correct fate worse than death. Perhaps we can institute a requirement that all vegans engage in Maoist-style public self-criticism?
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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