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Wag
 
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| The 'fish thing' - fish oil (and that is all fish oil, not just that from oily fish its just that oily fish has more oil cos it is oily and therefore more 'good stuff') contains fatty acids known as 'essential fatty acids'. These are not found in large amounts in land mammal meat and we are unable to make them ourselves (by the time honoured method of breaking food up and reforming it into whatever molecules we need) as we can with non essential fatty acids. These fatty acids are needed to build the specific fats that make up myelin sheaths (which speed up neurone transmission) and other fatty membranes in the brain. The fact that these fatty acids were required to make us 'brainy' in evolutionary terms is given as evidence for the 'mankind evolved by the sea' theory of hominid evolution - along with the fact we are natural swimmers (we can swim from birth its just that some people forget as they get older) and relatively hairless (hair slows you down in water). Also our 'webbed fingers' which you can see in some people and are said to be a devolution from that time. By living near the sea we ate fish so we got those essential fatty acids so we built better brains than animals which didn't. This theory is controversial, though... There are other sources of these fatty acids than just fish, however. Some grains, beans and cereals have them. Quinoa grain, for example. Also, nowadays you can barely find a margarine or yoghurt which doesn't have 'added omega 3' so there are lots of places where you can get them without eating fish. They also help in preventing heart disease, apparently. Though I think that is based purely on the evidence of eskimos who make themselves lardy on whale blubber and yet have little or no incidence of heart disease before they meet 'western food'. There is also some evidence from traditional Japanese lifestyle (again before westernisation) where fish was the main staple of the diet. There is a biochemical root for this, as well, so it is more than cause and effect 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
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Heroic Knight
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balor (5/3/2007)
There are other sources of these fatty acids than just fish, however. Some grains, beans and cereals have them. Quinoa grain, for example. Also, nowadays you can barely find a margarine or yoghurt which doesn't have 'added omega 3' so there are lots of places where you can get them without eating fish. Most are added as extra ingredients, and 99% are still fish derived, sorry. ( I only know this as we sell them to margarine and bread manufacturers. Apparently the stuff is exceedingly hard to extract from vegetable means in any quantity, thus rendering it almost unsaleable purely on price ). It is worth stating for the record that not all are fish derived, but it is worth reading the very small print to check if you are concerned. R
________________________________________________ Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Champion
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coffmeister (5/3/2007)
Plus, my exposure to avian flu... is now zero.You do know that avian flu isn't transmitted through the meat, right? You're just as likely to get it as the rest of us (unless you always carry an umberella).
Anyway, just to back track a bit; how is making whey horrific? Surely it's just a by-product of allowing milk to curdle?
Ascendancy LRP: Redvers Fenn-Cooper Crimson Requiem: Crew Real Life: Doug McKerracher Quis custodiet ipsos custard?
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I do talk a good fight
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Yer Omega-3s are found in hemp seed & linseed too -- both of which may be unusual ingredients, but they're certainly not impossible to find. A bit of hemp seed oil on salad, instead of olive oil, is a great, easy way to get plenty of Omega-3s.
Of course I do that occasionally AND eat oily fish most days... this is because from what I've read on the subject, it's the RATIO of Omega-3 to Omega-6 that's important (the Omega-6 oil will fill up yer myelin sheaths if you don't get a high enough ration of 3 to 6, causing depression and/or stupidity). Most Western diets have loads of Omega-6 & hardly any Omega-3.
As for Eskimos -- if the increased heart disease etc. happened around the time of their introduction to Western lifestyles, I suspect it's more down to the electric lightbulb messin' with their natural sleep patterns:
http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Sleep-Sugar-Survival/dp/0671038680/ref=cm_rss_rev_title1
As to vegans -- they're making an effort to eat healthily (how successful that part is I'm not sure; I've known a fair few fat, unhealthy vegans, and a lot of fit, lean omnivores who eat plenty of skinless chicken & fish), and more importantly to reduce their complicity in animal suffering & environmental disaster. Personally I aim to do my bit regarding the latter by buying organic and/or free-range meat most of the time (particularly chicken & pig meat; the other meats I eat, venison, lamb, and beef, tend to be inherently free-range anyway), not eating too much of it, living a low-carbon lifestyle, etc., but I recognize that veganism could reduce said complicity further still. I wouldn't be able to do it myself.
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Wag
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| *I* know that Avian flu isn't transmitted in the meat.. however, this does not stop Joe Q Public from believing it and thus impacting sales of chicken and other bird meat... The added Omega 3s from fish are mainly in the margarines/spreads and yoghurts. So, yes, avoid these if you are being ethical about use of fish in diet. However, as Ian pointed out, there are many natural, non meat based sources of it if you know where to look. I mentioned Quinoia (which isn't bad, if a tad bland) and ian mentioned a few others. The Eskimo study (and the Japanese study) would be considered 'coincidental' if it wasn't also for the biochemical evidence that has been gathered. However, I don've time to dig any of this up. I think it may still be controversial, however. But them most things in science are these days
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
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Heroic Knight
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balor (5/4/2007)
The added Omega 3s from fish are mainly in the margarines/spreads and yoghurts. So, yes, avoid these if you are being ethical about use of fish in diet. However, as Ian pointed out, there are many natural, non meat based sources of it if you know where to look. I mentioned Quinoia (which isn't bad, if a tad bland) and ian mentioned a few others. Sorry, I did type the other comment when still half alseep this morning, and it may not have come out quite as intended. Yes you are completely correct, there are a lot of exceedingly good sources of pretty much everything you can get from meat and fish in the plant world. Even, the carnivores favorite argument against vegetarianism, protein. The bits I never understand ( and working for a company that supplies such things kind of makes it worse ) is why you need to synthetically produce ( and that does include some extractions and purifications ) stuff to make shit food better for you. Why do you need to add "fat free butter extract" to anything ? My biggest example of this is one some peope may have heard me mention before, dried strawberries in cereals ( this is getting better by the way as people become more worried about additives in food, but still does happen ), for those that don't know, dried strawberries are brown and have a lovely flavour of strawberry. To get the colour right ( ie, shiny pillar box red, you know the colour of strawberries ) they ( evil manufacturers who think for us ) bleach the dried strawberries and then stick a natural red colourant in them. Ok you say, makes them more appealing, well yes and no, as the bleaching process also takes out most of the flavour, so they then have to add back in a natural dried strawberry flavour. WHY ?!?! why not just leave them alone and have the already natural product ?!?!? If people ( and I am generalising badly here, sorry ) in this country ate decent food rather than the endless supply of shit packaged ready meals and fast food, then a) the country wouldn't be so obese and b) the whole vegan argument we are having would be mildly redundant as ( yes I grant you everyone should eat the odd steak now and again, and those that don't are freaks  ) everyone should be eating what the government calls "healthy lifestyle" food. I apologise now, as food additives and ready meals are one of by biggest annoyances with the world currently, and I can't help but think we would be better people if all the ready meal manufacturers spontaniously combusted and left us eating well reared fresh meat and nice vegetables ( I may be a bit poorer and living in a box if they did, but sacrifice is worth it...............) .
________________________________________________ Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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I do talk a good fight
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It's quite tough to get sufficient protein to support intense exercise on a vegan diet, without also taking in excess calories in the form of empty carbs (I firmly believe that most carbohydrate in the diet should come from fresh fruit & veg, rather than shovelling in vast quantities of pasta, rice, etc., for the sake of its minimal protein content). It's doable, but you need to eat an awful lot of tofu -- probably to the point that you risk developing a soya allergy.
Of course if you don't do intense exercise, you can get enough protein by looking at high-protein grains (quinoa, as mentioned already regarding EFAs, is about the best and most complete). It's tough to beat cottage cheese, egg white, skinless chicken, and fish as healthy protein sources though, so with intense exercise (another component, IMO, of being a healthy human being, along with diet), it's hard to be a healthy vegan. Unless you eat heavily processed foods, like TVP or other forms of protein that have been extracted from vegetable sources (vegetable protein powder, that kind of thing).
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Heroic Knight
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| I don't disagree with you on the fact that essentially human beings are designed to eat a varied diet of things and should excersise. I do slightly disagree that you can't get enough protein without the carbs though, it depends on the level of protein you are trying to consume. Obviously if you are doing a very vigorous weight training routine than you aer going to perpetually going to be drinking vile soya protein shakes rather than the "sensible" option of eating a bit of lean cooked chicken. But your "normal" human beign who is just excersising to lose a bit of weight or just stay healthy should easily be able to survive. Although I will add that I am no nutritionalist, it is just purely from my experiences ( I eat lots of meat, my girlfriend is vegetarian we both excersise and are reasonable healthy ). R.
________________________________________________ Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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