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Wag
      
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nesciomancer (3/27/2007) Really? It seems like the sensible thing for us to be doing. I'm not sure if we've had a rulebook on our recruiting stall recently, but if we haven't it's probably lack of organisation more than any opposition to the idea.
*shrug* If I was out recruiting for PD, which I am wont to do on occasion, I wouldn't whip out some CP or LT literature. Of course I prefer our style of presentation to theirs, cuz I'm biased, but even so, I perceive a degree of competition exists so I would tend to avoid showing literature to someone unless they started saying things like "I like a lot of mosh plot, do you have that at Maelstrom". If they say that then I usually say "no, but I know a good game that does..."
In my experience LRP organisers are generally quite cagey and protection of their "turf". For me it's a simple issue of economics, but when I was involved with local clubs I often experienced a certain degree of defensiveness.
In the end, at some level, we're all running LRP games and some LRPers can only afford the time and money to go to so many LRP games. So while it may be true that DUTT with it's thrice weekly games is at the polar opposite end of the market (in terms of price and frequency) to PD we might still end up fighting each other for players. Since most human beings are driven by greed and fear, I would expect the paranoia of that competition to prevent most clubs considering using literature emblazoned with PD logos to recruit new players.
Which is a shame (for us), because the flip side of the coin is that what is good for a group like DUTT is good for PD... I don't know how many DUTT players come to Maelstrom, but it's clearly a significant number, lets say for arguments sake it's 50%, it doesn't really matter. That means that every two people that DUTT recruits to LRP is one more person through the door at Maelstrom... So it's very clear what PD gets from DUTT, (and dozens of clubs and organizations like it up and down the country) it's far less clear what a group like DUTT gets from PD... If our literature really does help you recruit, then that is fantastic, it feels like we're holding up our side of the "deal" so to speak. But how representative is that of other clubs? I just don't know.
Since there are differences between Maelstrom and DUTT, I'd rather make it clear which one I'm talking about rather than risk new people getting confused.
Fair enough. Since DUTT is the only club I know of that uses our literature in this way, for the time being it's a moot point. At the end of the day many clubs wouldn't want our "help" in recruiting new players (I know what pride is!). But obviously PD is in a relatively privileged position, we have small budgets for marketing and promotion, we have some reasonable in-house skills which are paid for full time. Ultimately we can afford to attempt to produce promotional material which is beyond the means of most small clubs.
But what we can't do is actually give that material to new players. I have no mechanisms at all for giving our literature to new players. Sure they can request it from the website, but they're already a potential player by then. The idea of freshers fayres where dozens of potential new players come to your stall and look interested is not something we've access to at the moment (we could attend LRP conventions but the people there are already LRPers, we're just robbing players from other systems again...). We're looking at ways to overcome that, I'm interested in developing methods for putting LRP onto the shelves of shops so that you can walk in and buy it over the counter, but we're a long way off that yet. And until that day comes, we're utterly reliant on the small local clubs to recruit significant numbers of new people into LRP.
Hence if there are things that we can do to work together with the small clubs that want to work with us, then it makes sense for us to do so. If PD resources can help small clubs get new players into their club then it's good for the clubs. And my logic says that's good for us also... It doesn't matter if we're robbing players from each other, if by the products of our combined existence more people are coming into LRP...
Again, I can't speak for any other clubs, but from where I'm sitting I really don't think you ought to be beating yourself up about player-poaching.
I'm not beating myself up and I'm not talking about these things because I feel guilty or philanthropic. It's naked self-interest. I want to make more money than I do at present. My job is running an LRP company. We have a sizeable percentage of the "market", but I want a bigger share of a bigger market. If I can get more people LRPing than I have a bigger market to go at. Net result - I earn more money. I'm not beating myself up, I'm looking for ways to earn a pay rise. I not in this job for the good of my health, I'm in it for the villa in the south of France...
And hey, it's my hobby to. When I get a weekend off... I like to go LRPing... It's not exactly a busman's holiday because running LRP is very different to playing. But to get the best out of it, I need a healthy hobby with events I can enjoy. Me and my friends had our hearts set on Odyssey last year - big gay Spartans - it was going to be glorious. And then the event fell through for lack of numbers...
From what I can see, it's just not meaningful to speak about Maelstrom competing with DUTT for players. I get the impression from Marios' post elsewhere that DUTT is as much about LRPers at Durham having a society for LRPing as about a campaign and a rules system. I've never experienced that, all my local club experience has been in local clubs that only existed as wrappers for a single "artistic creation" campaign. Basically the club existed as an extension of the game, not the other way round. If it really is different at DUTT, then that may be the reason why you're so open minded about using our literature. I can see that if you're more interested in getting people into LRP than into your game, things seem very different.
Of course if that's true, (and if it's true of other places other than just DUTT), then it's all the more reason why a company like PD would want to do what it could to support and assist. Supporting membership of an LRP "society" makes even more sense for us than trying to help "club systems".
Quite what we can and can't do to help is another question altogether. Unbranded literature that looks "cool" and "slick" and "interesting" is one idea. Maybe it wouldn't be useful, maybe other clubs would find it useful, I don't know. We carry fliers for other LRP games and we lend kit to other LRP systems because the goodwill it generates is easily worth what it costs. Unfortunately, in practice, both of those do not scale up well. We can do it for a few favoured clubs and stuff run by mates, but beyond that it's difficult. It would be great to develop better ways to support local clubs and societies that wanted to work with us. We have lots of really exciting ideas but of course time is the ever pressing problem. If only there were more than 18 working hours in a day!!
Ah well, maybe next year.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
      
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Trez (3/27/2007) She actually thought it looked pretty impressive and didnt think I was a sad weirdo
Good presentation can go a long way to counter the geek image.
We need to focus on the achievable, we don't need to make LRP look cool, we just need to make it less sad than Warcrack... 
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
      
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Marrus Darkblade (3/27/2007) On the subject of literature being written for experienced players, I guess it is, but then so is everyone else's. Of the several rulebooks I've read in the last year or so, deciding which system to try, I have to say the PD one was the clearest to me, as a total novice. One of the reasons I picked Maelstrom as my first game to try.
We are in the process of completely rewriting all our literature with the intention of trying to deliver it to a less LRP experienced audience. We got very positive feedback on the document from the non-LRPing proof readers who saw it. It'll take a long time to replace all our literature in the new style, but it should be done by the end of the year. Hopefully then new-to-LRP players will find Maelstrom even more accessible. It's the critical first stage in a three year plan to develop ways to recruit players from outside of LRP.
Obviously you're not a novice anymore but after you get the new character creation book at Family Ties, let me know what you think!
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Prodigal
      
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I think there are a variety of different kinds of LARPers:
1) Student / Local LARPers, who use their club LARP group as one of their main RL social communities, probably live in walking distance or no more than fifteen minutes drive away from where the group is held. This kind of LARPer appreciates very regular events and comes along even if the game is a bit rubbish because they want to see their friends. These people tend to be time-rich and money-poor, which lends itself to local regular events with lower kit standards, although they often club together and head out to fest events, and probably make up the backbone of LT small-event monsters (because an event that's free to attend and you get fed is a big draw).
2) Mobile / Picky LARPers, who have become time-poor and money-rich. They'll go to the very high quality medium-frequency events. They're mostly interested in the quality of the game rather than the community around it or who's going, although obviously there are exceptions and generally they make friends within this community.
3) Social But Remote LARPers, who don't live near any particular club but have made strong friendships amongst a large variety of LARPers. These people will tend to go to the Gathering and similar large events so they can meet up with as many of their old friends as possible over the course of one weekend.
Obviously actual people transcend these categories and often fit into more than one, but it means there are three distinct market segments - frequent local clubs with a heavy social aspect, less frequent medium-sized events which expect people to travel to them but also offer much higher quality and stronger theming, and occasional fest events where you can meet everyone and which offer similar things to medium-sized events because you can pull off some themes with really big events that you couldn't with medium events so well.
Maelstrom: Jessily the Wemic, previously Tourmaline of Weaver
CUTT: Kerriville the Ninth, previously Ref 07/08
EOS: Study the Venin
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Knight
      
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I reckon actually LT has more to do with the death of clubs than most; in a way the other 2 big 'uns don't. The sanctioned event system and the number that are currently available in the LT means that you can easily be at an LT event most weekends of the year, some have a choice of 2 or 3 to be at. Get heavily involved in the game and it can easily remove any opportunity to get involved in any other game.
While CP and PD both have other weekend events available apart from their big 4 they are both much less in number and frequency.
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PD: Hat Wearer - Blue, Black, Orange and others as required.
Artificer: Marsin Evron, Crew
CP: Don Carlos, 3ic Algaia, Staff.
One day I shall remember how to play.
"Loving means Ramming"
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Prodigal
      
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Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) In my experience LRP organisers are generally quite cagey and protection of their "turf". For me it's a simple issue of economics, but when I was involved with local clubs I often experienced a certain degree of defensiveness. I think it's very easy for me to get defensive if I'm discussing DUTT vs other small local clubs (e.g. FnH, Vampire, Dark Fables, etc), or LT vs Maelstrom. I don't feel inclined to get defensive about DUTT vs Maelstrom. Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) In the end, at some level, we're all running LRP games and some LRPers can only afford the time and money to go to so many LRP games. Possibly this is another peculiarity of the university larp system- students have more free time than most people, and DUTT is cheap enough that if you struggle to afford it then you probably shouldn't be aiming to attend big fest events anyway. Also, DUTT doesn't run any IC events outside of university term time (which is when Maelstrom usually runs. I think in 2005 there was one Maelstrom event in the run up to summer exams, which wasn't ideal for us, but that was Maelstrom competing with work rather than with DUTT). We do run one larger weekend camping event in the summer- if that wound up running on a Maelstrom weekend then I think we could expect problems getting high enough attendance numbers. But it's only one event per year, so it's relatively easy for us to schedule it for a non-Maelstrom weekend, and no one I know has expressed any problems with trying to attend both. I can see how if you ran more weekend events over summer which aimed at large attendence then competing with Maelstrom might be more of an issue, but I don't think it is at DUTT. Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) So while it may be true that DUTT with it's thrice weekly games is at the polar opposite end of the market (in terms of price and frequency) to PD we might still end up fighting each other for players. We might do, but my perception is that we don't to any meaningful degree.
Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) At the end of the day many clubs wouldn't want our "help" in recruiting new players (I know what pride is!). But obviously PD is in a relatively privileged position, we have small budgets for marketing and promotion, we have some reasonable in-house skills which are paid for full time. Ultimately we can afford to attempt to produce promotional material which is beyond the means of most small clubs. It's always hard for us to work out what does and doesn't work recruiting-wise (as you say, you can pump existing players for feedback on why they joined, but you can't ask everyone else what put them off). In 2006, the current social secretary made a particularly big effort to produce some new recruiting posters. I thought the designs were very good, although obviously they were just black and white photocopies. I have no idea if they actually made a difference or not- none of the new recruits have mentioned them particularly as something that influenced their decision to join. It seems like generally the most important thing we can do to get new players is to have a stall at Freshers' Fair with people fighting with shiny weapons and a mixture of people in shiny kit and people in unintimidating OC clothes. It also helps to make sure that the people on the stall are charismatic and good at explaining larp to someone who's never heard of it. A substantial proportion of female members on the stall doesn't hurt. Most people who wind up joining at the fair seem to be drawn in by the fighting and/or kit, supplemented by the explanations of how the roleplay works. Then if you get a high number of people at Freshers' Fair, you can expect them to pull in some of their friends. So again, I could be wrong, but my perception is that any promotional material we distribute is mostly important due to the fact that it has our email and website addresses on it, and the date and time of events. The designs or shininess seem to have relatively little effect compared to how good the stall is.
Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) I'm not beating myself up and I'm not talking about these things because I feel guilty or philanthropic. It's naked self-interest. I want to make more money than I do at present. That's good to know- it sounds like a much healthier approach than the one I thought you were advocating for a minute there. Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) I get the impression from Marios' post elsewhere that DUTT is as much about LRPers at Durham having a society for LRPing as about a campaign and a rules system. I've never experienced that, all my local club experience has been in local clubs that only existed as wrappers for a single "artistic creation" campaign. Basically the club existed as an extension of the game, not the other way round. If it really is different at DUTT, then that may be the reason why you're so open minded about using our literature. It's hard for me to compare DUTT to other clubs when I've never been to any. I'm attached to the campaign in the sense that there are currently bits of it that I like very much and would feel annoyed if anyone tried to change OC. I like the rules system in the sense that it makes a lot more sense than the old system used to, and we're constantly working to improve it (although we're limited by the fact that the change is generally pretty incremental- there's relatively little opportunity to rip everything up and start again). But I wouldn't call the DUTT campaign a single 'artistic creation', mostly because there's so much turnover in the ref team that no one person has the chance to impose their vision on the game for very long. As Iasus says, we've been running for 25 years ago now, but it's a bit like the Grandfather's old axe- since we're constantly changing little things, I expect that it would be hard to recognise the original DUTT and the current one as the same club. Since we recruit mostly new larpers, I think there's a tendency for everyone to feel most loyal to the way things were done in their first year, but the nature of university larp means that membership turnover is pretty high (due to people moving after graduation). Matt Pennington (3/28/2007) I can see that if you're more interested in getting people into LRP than into your game, things seem very different. If I tell a Durham student about larp, then ideally I want them to join DUTT rather than turning around and joining the Newcastle Vampire game, or whatever. But I'd prefer that they joined a different larp group than not joining any larp group at all, and if they genuinely prefer Vampire or Maelstrom or whatever over DUTT then I'd prefer that they go to the system they enjoy most rather than coming to DUTT while feeling dissatisfied with it.
WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.
OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
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Wag
      
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