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Champion
 
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| I suspect that the author is less concerned with feminism than promoting her own personal career and notoriety by being "shocking" and ooooh so radical Clearly such a diatribe of unsubstantiated generalisations, shows that either:- a) She deviod of any comprehension of an objective argument, so must resort to "You're all stupid. Women are the best. Wooo for women". or b) Her entire experience of men is that of neanderthal apes which has somewhat skewed her perceptions of the male "species"
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Wag
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Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
I think you mean "I'm never met a stereotypical man-hating feminist who...".
No - I meant what I said. I've never met someone who self-identified as a feminist or who expresses feminist sentiments, without noting that they also seem to alienated from the majority of women and tend to hold the majority in a certain amount of contempt.
Such people aren't (necessarily) stereotypical man-hating feminists - I generally find I have a soft spot for them because I'm inclined to agree. The majority of women are actually very boring - I find the disaffected minority far more interesting. If I were in their Doc Martens, I'd hold my fellow woman in contempt and push for the acceptance of masculinised roles for women just to find some interesting people to talk to.
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
If you mean feminism as a political movement to support women's rights
I didn't - I said 'feminist' because I think that's almost entirely distinct from "feminism as a political movement" (which is a bit undefined - univeral suffrage and equality before the law is a bit clearer). Feminism is nothing special these days (it's been a long time since I've seen something come up where there was a clearly "feminist" angle on one side) - at least, in the West (who gives a fuck about women outside of the West? Not Western women, according to Naomi Klein - lots of pious words in the 1930's about how Feminism was a world movement. Since then, nothing much bar the occasional empty gesture.).
If you're saying that everyone who supports/doesn't oppose women's rights is really a Feminist - whether or not they'd describe themselves as one - then I think you've exhausted the word's ability to distinguish between the (unthinking) majority of the populace and anything other than a vilified minority (there isn't really any neutral intellectual space where people can question the value of women's rights).
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
The radical "ball burning" feminism of things like "Scum" seems to be entirely developed around hating things in my experience.
Hard to find an ideology which isn't based around hating something. Was it a month ago when everyone was jumping up and down and expressing hatred for evil people who dare to monger hate? If even pacifism revolves around focusing hatred at warmongers, I don't think there's much distinction left here between 'bad ideologies' and good.
No - I reckon the public expressions of ideological hate and aggression we see on forums - mostly by males - are an extension of mating display of the 'heart on a sleeve' including a bit of safe externally-directed hatred/violence/aggression. Not only am I a _good person_ who will not eat your babies, but I will _kill dead_ anyone else who tries to eat them.
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
When that happens the people the haters really hate is members of their own community who "sell out", "collaborate" or "fail to realise the truth of their lives".
In-group tensions are always more immediate than out-group tensions when the out-group isn't on your doorstep threatening you.
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
Feminism is partly synonymous with dungarees lesbians, burning bras and hating men (and women), which is an utterly rediculous unrepresentative portrayal as far as I can see. Feminism /= Valerie Solanas. There are more feminists than people who shot Andy Warhol...
Really? Can you supply a proper representative portrayal then?
I'd seen one or two things by the Guerilla Girls and they looked rather cool. Then I went to the Tate Modern and found an entire room dedicated to their whining. One or two reasonable points about gallery-owners/boards being self-interested, drowned in a vast deluge of whining about the fact that women have it really hard and that women's art doesn't make it into galleries much. Possibly this is because there aren't as many female artists as there are male artists. Or possibly they just aren't as good. I don't see any reason why galleries should be demographically representative - 17% of the local community is Muslim, so 17% of the art must be Muslim art - a bit tricky since this a portrait gallery - rather than based on the - possibly whimsical, possibly biased - subjective evaluation of the board of what is 'actually worth hanging in there gallery'. Obviously, if lots of brilliant female artists are being shut out by an evil, white-male dominated art world then that's bad from the point of view of someone wanting to see good art - defined however - but surely the way to show this up is to dedicate the gallery room you're given to displaying a smorgasboard spread of all the brilliant stuff which the dark conspiracy is blocking from display (they had an entire room in the Tate Modern which contained nothing but posters complaining about women artists not getting space to show their stuff - no pictures, just their political diatribes!!!). Oddly reminiscent of the room down the corridor full of Soviet 1920-1950 magazine cover art.
Marios
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Champion
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dunno i cant help but think the name "scum" is pat for the organisation that wrote the garbage that began this thread, just a thought though, if a man wrote similar stuff about females, i can help but think people would be trying to lynch him, instead of just taking the mick
____________________________________As the old robot saying goes "does not compute"
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Wag
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Trez (3/8/2007)
I suspect that the author is less concerned with feminism than promoting her own personal career and notoriety by being "shocking" and ooooh so radical
I doubt it, she's dead. She died in 1988.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas
b) Her entire experience of men is that of neanderthal apes which has somewhat skewed her perceptions of the male "species"
Andy Warhol lost her manuscript for "Up your ass" so she shot him. *shrug*
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Knight
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blackcurrants (3/8/2007)
I know some impeccably feminist men. And it's pretty damn sexy. I wonder if anyone's told men that?None of the women I know seem to think so. A lot of them seem to find borderline psychotic bastards with the sexual morals of a priapismic tomcat ideal partners. Not much hope for a short, shy, not quite overweight (but borderline) man of distinctly average looks and very little charisma in that arena, no matter how respectful to women and emotionally developed they are. I should imagine.
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Wag
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Marios (3/8/2007)
No - I meant what I said. I've never met someone who self-identified as a feminist or who expresses feminist sentiments, without noting that they also seem to alienated from the majority of women and tend to hold the majority in a certain amount of contempt.
Oh. How odd. I've never met anyone like that. I've met a lot of feminists. I wouldn't consider going out with a woman who wasn't a feminist, it would feel like I was dating a racist.
I didn't - I said 'feminist' because I think that's almost entirely distinct from "feminism as a political movement" (which is a bit undefined - univeral suffrage and equality before the law is a bit clearer).
Fair enough. I live a sheltered life, I've never seen or met anyone who espoused radical feminist views except on television. I've always considered them to be as real as the drug pushers who hang round school yards trying to sell heroin to seven years old, a sort of arch-conservatives bogeyman.
To me feminism is nothing more or less than the drive for equal treatment for men and women. We've come a long way since universal suffrage and equality before the law but we still have a long way to go IMO. Consider the gulf in attitudes between men who assert their sexuality by being promiscuous (a stud) and women who assert their sexuality by being promiscuous (sluts). That's just a tiny example, but a significant one in my mind.
If you're saying that everyone who supports/doesn't oppose women's rights is really a Feminist - whether or not they'd describe themselves as one - then I think you've exhausted the word's ability to distinguish between the (unthinking) majority of the populace and anything other than a vilified minority (there isn't really any neutral intellectual space where people can question the value of women's rights).
Whatever. I find your views unconvincing. To me it's like saying "well, we're all soft-core christians really, to actually be a proper christian means you go out shooting non-believers, anything less is blurring the issue".
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
Hard to find an ideology which isn't based around hating something. Was it a month ago when everyone was jumping up and down and expressing hatred for evil people who dare to monger hate?
My point really is that radical and extremist tendencies seem to have a strong tendency to hate EVERYONE.
Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
Really? Can you supply a proper representative portrayal then?
I always find Camille Paglia pretty sensible when I read her stuff. I think she's actually far more in tune with the average feminist man and woman in the streets than the male-hate brigade. Other than that. My partner. About 9/10 of the women I've ever know. About 1/3 to a 1/2 of the men I've ever know. I haven't met many misogynist men and women but I have met a few (I have had a few female friends who felt a woman's place was in the home for instance).
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
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Xollob (3/8/2007)
dunno i cant help but think the name "scum" is pat for the organisation that wrote the garbage that began this thread, just a thought though, if a man wrote similar stuff about females, i can help but think people would be trying to lynch him, instead of just taking the mick
Hmm, I think you're dead wrong there. I think if a man wrote it, everyone would just think he was a mental lunatic and ignore him. But when a woman writes it, Marios (and most of the right wing western media) call it feminism....
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
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Matt Pennington (3/8/2007)
Oh. How odd. I've never met anyone like that. I've met a lot of feminists. I wouldn't consider going out with a woman who wasn't a feminist, it would feel like I was dating a racist.
'Not being a feminist' is like being 'a racist'? I think I've found the source of the oddness - I wonder how women who don't think of themselves as feminists feel about that? I suppose a small amount of female oppression is ok so long as it serves the greater good of ending female oppression.
Marios
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