|
|
|
Knight
 
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:29 PM
Posts: 51,
Visits: 866
|
|
the fallen represent the nightmares.......the boogie men, the closet monster, the thing under the bed...........do we realy want this to be the last generation of bad guys in the system? then who will we have to pick on......the natives.........but they only got pointy sticks and poo to throw
one day if things keep going this way, i can see a perfect world with no evil immortals.............sucks dont it, no one for all your frothing zelots and racest characters to fight.......would probly make you change your characters goals............then heres an idea change them now, but still include the hatred, just work out ways to inconveniace them........
.....they need mana right? dont sell it to them, buy it from others who might, steal there mana sites.
.....they need weapons? dont sell it to them, talk to your allies get them not to sell to them, bribe or blackmaile the traders who are selling to them.......im sure some of the zelots would like to know who is supplying them with all these stuff.....
there are ways where both sides get the enjoyment out of the event.
"but my character would just kill them"............then join a liniar!!!! every one you face you can kill.....and they are the monster crew......
kill them yes, but not every time you see them, maybe just watch to see what they are dooing.
PD: Priest
FnH: Matilda Rothbaine
LT: Monster Mash
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:07 PM
Posts: 236,
Visits: 1,827
|
|
I think what Tree is basically trying to say is "Concentrate on trying to *defeat* your enemies, rather than forcing them to -IC- go elsewhere and in no way compromise themselves, but -OC- retire out of frustration." Which is admirable, even if it is asking people to go against what appears to 'work' in the short term.
While I don't think contriving in-character actions in order to give your enemies breathing space is necessarily the way forward if you want to maintain consistency and gameworld integrity, I do sometimes worry that as people gradually retire their characters out of frustration, maelstrom is in danger of turning into a glorified vampire larp (admittedly within an extremely rich and detailed phys-repped IC world) when it comes to the immortal game (i.e. we all go and hide in the shadows of our own little corner and pretend to be very 'political' at each other while trying our utmost to avoid actually doing anything in case we breach the masquerade and then can't play our characters for the rest of the event when the inevitable angry mob turns up to kill us. But we're unstoppable powerhouses in downtime, of course!).
Aside from this, your main message is straight and to the point. More "nightmares" = good. Admittedly, it's hard to do right now. All the odds are stacked unfavourably. Everyone hates you and wants to kill you on sight. People will whine that you're too powerful the moment you scrape together any kind of success. You're a glorified monster crew in many ways, except you aren't bound by 'fight for five minutes in the marketplace before going down so they get a good fight'. You're a living breathing character with aspirations, friends and enemies. You just so happen to have vastly more enemies than friends.
I say:
Perfect. Playing the underdog is superb. And the more of us there are, the better. If anyone's teetering on the edge of playing a nastie, and hasn't quite made up their mind yet - take this post to be that final poke in the right direction. It may be harder being evil, but it's so, so much more fun! And the more of us there are, the more fun it gets for both sides.
-----
Maelstrom: Next: We'll see... Previously: Aestar
EOS: Currently: Knight-Protector Circe, The loudest Sornassian Tin-Can in the world. Previously: Amathir of the Winterborn, a small pile of Aivelle-flavoured dust.
CP: Currently: Anzella, cerrrvazy orc berserker ja! Previously: "Breaker", Jhereg Legion
Does my ping look big in this?
|
|
|
|
|
Prodigal
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 11:19 PM
Posts: 650,
Visits: 4,626
|
|
Theresa (3/6/2007)
Perfect. Playing the underdog is superb. And the more of us there are, the better. If anyone's teetering on the edge of playing a nastie, and hasn't quite made up their mind yet - take this post to be that final poke in the right direction. It may be harder being evil, but it's so, so much more fun! And the more of us there are, the more fun it gets for both sides.
i am intrigued by your philosophy and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
+++++
Odyssey team. Someone kind once said I was designing the game experience. Flattery will get him far.
As with all PD matters, such positions are best sought direct from PD through the usual official channels. Accept no substitutes!
|
|
|
|
|
Prodigal
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Friday, August 27, 2010 6:05 PM
Posts: 737,
Visits: 2,562
|
|
The problem with an evil, sociopathic eidolon is, if done well, you shouldn't even know they are there until it is to late.
Imagine, if you will, a secret cabal of friendly priests. Each wears a hat, but they hold supplications, intiations and other rites. Each sits in there respective colony, gently pushing for war and strife among colony heads, why amusing themselves by playing in-character mind games with selected victims.
Imagine the growing horror of a single demon hunter who works it out and discovers his fellow countrymen are in fact soul pacted slaves... The discovery, if played well, should be gobsmacking.
Fallen are, if you'll forgive the language, the ultimate choice for playing a truly villainous bastard. Want to play the Gentleman Pyscho? Fallen is your weapon of choice. But please, use patience and be more Hannibal Lecter (in Manhunter), than Dr Evil from Austin Powers.
MaelstromCommunitylinks: Livejournal ,Myspace, Facebook, Orkut, the Frappr Map of Playersand Flickr photosharing. See also the List of Allegiance based webgroups, Helen's list of Event Photo Websites and the IC/OOC Calendar . , . See also Top Tips for Priests. My LRP CARD.
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:07 PM
Posts: 236,
Visits: 1,827
|
|
Consider, of course, the prospect of the fallen actually *wanting* to make a visible, public stand. What better symbol of defiance is there than to openly challenge the gods, especially as a six foot black spiked monstrosity clad in twisted runic armour and wielding a cruel barbed hell-blade? There's always scope for hiding in the shadows, masquerading as unassuming people-next-door...but tell me you don't get the flicker of terror when you see Flail out and about on the move...*and he's coming right for you!*
I think there's mileage in either approach.
-----
Maelstrom: Next: We'll see... Previously: Aestar
EOS: Currently: Knight-Protector Circe, The loudest Sornassian Tin-Can in the world. Previously: Amathir of the Winterborn, a small pile of Aivelle-flavoured dust.
CP: Currently: Anzella, cerrrvazy orc berserker ja! Previously: "Breaker", Jhereg Legion
Does my ping look big in this?
|
|
|
|
|
Champion
Group: Eos Staff
Last Login: Yesterday @ 8:04 PM
Posts: 261,
Visits: 3,055
|
|
I do and generally we are with him Aestar *shiver*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PD: Mr Elbow
Retired:Justice - Dreadlord of the Fallen
EOS: Staff
LT: Mercutio - Guild Master of the Incantors Guild - Champion of the Dark Faiths of Edreja
Odessey: Warlord Ba'al-Akeen Hannon of the Hannon Souk - Great Autocrator of Carthage
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:39 PM
Posts: 102,
Visits: 427
|
|
There's also the classic playing both sides against the middle approach, where you confuse people to the point where they don't know your alignment and ideall regard you as harmless. That's when you can get some real work done.
__________________Your own personal Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
Wag
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: 2 days ago @ 11:24 PM
Posts: 3,415,
Visits: 14,016
|
|
Theresa (3/6/2007)
I think what Tree is basically trying to say is "Concentrate on trying to *defeat* your enemies, rather than forcing them to -IC- go elsewhere and in no way compromise themselves, but -OC- retire out of frustration."
Whichever way it goes, someone is going to be frustrated - that's the stakes of the conflict game. If you were swatting down mortals, they wouldn't even have the option of weighing up frustrating versus coming back 'cause they be dead. Immortality is pretty good - I don't think you can reasonably demand invulnerability too (even if a lot of players on the other side of the game confused the two).
I think part of the problem is that player perceptions swing so wildly. One event, the eidolons are unstoppable mega-beasts and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them because they can't get their true names. I wouldn't be surprised if eidolons felt an OOC pressure to tone themselves down because of all this talk about how they were "unstoppable". Next event people realise that eidolons can be 'stopped' by a couple of feet of lead piping and modest legwork and a bit of determination (or by leaning on the next hosts not to include a ritual circle). Any eidolons who felt like they had to tone themselves down IC because they were "invulnerable" OOC will probably feel rather bitter - surely the opposition will now do the decent and tone themselves down in turn?
I don't think people should tone themselves down because, after four years, I don't think anyone really has any idea what is broken/not broken. Regularly we hear tales about how one faction or other have become 'unstoppable' - then next event they get squished. I think it's time everyone learnt to just ignore these tales as blatant propaganda for the unterhund - basic resentment/frustration-driven emotional blackmail. Your character/faction is broken/so overpowering that you are ruining the game - it's your fault I'm failing, not mine! Kindly rein yourself in. Surely everyone has caught themselves saying something like this and many have watched it swing right round as soon as they've realised that the sword does work if you point the sharp end away from you.
In short, I reckon if there'd been "Wah! Eidolons are unstoppable!" there'd have been less surprise/frustration from Eidolons (Fallen in particular) when it turned out - as anyone with any faith in the people wrote the game would have thought - that they were quite palpably stoppable. Possibly if Eidolons hadn't reined themselves in (presuming that some, at least, did), their opposition would have been forced to tumble to their vulnerabilities sooner and the revelation would have been less of a shock to Eidolons (who would have at least have been left with a sense of having made full and unrestrained-by-OOC-guilt use of the opportunities/opposition-brain-lag-factor).
Theresa (3/6/2007)
(i.e. we all go and hide in the shadows of our own little corner and pretend to be very 'political' at each other while trying our utmost to avoid actually doing anything in case we breach the masquerade and then can't play our characters for the rest of the event when the inevitable angry mob turns up to kill us.
Someone's always going to be in the shit-bin. Of course, the shit-bin also happens to be one of the best places from which make to underdog political capital and launch attacks which can't be traced back to anyone who can be punished (al-Qaedish). Today's shit-bin is tomorrow's missile silo.
Theresa (3/6/2007)
People will whine that you're too powerful the moment you scrape together any kind of success.
True, but not really eidolon specific (how many groups have been accused of being able to unbalance/destroy the game? I presume other people have played board games like Settlers of Catan and know about the strategic importance of playing up the minor advantages of other players - "A development card! It must be a victory point - that puts him on 9 pts. Just 1 away from winning!!!!" - alongside "Wah! I'm losing so hard! This sucks! The dice are broken!").
Nietzchean slave-morality for the win (always make sure you get the black pieces).
Marios
|
|
|
|
|
Wag
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: 2 days ago @ 11:24 PM
Posts: 3,415,
Visits: 14,016
|
|
Theresa (3/6/2007)
Consider, of course, the prospect of the fallen actually *wanting* to make a visible, public stand.
In general, almost every larper seems to have been preconditioned that the best way to do anything is to be sneaky and covert. On the ground (and in everything historical I've read) this seems to be largely bollocks. Oh, sure, it would be great to be the power behind the throne and get all the goodies without taking any of the risks. It would also be great to be able to treble 20 every time I throw a dart (at least, presuming that I wanted to). In practice, unless you assume the presume of invisible lizards deviously and anonymously directing every epoch of human endeavour, we seem to live in the world where the best way of getting darts in the board is to stand up and throw some, rather than deviously planning to consider maybe throwing a whole lot of darts in the future.
Being overt gets you opposed - but being opposed gets you a large amount of coverage on both sides. Being sneaky puts you in a position to thwart other people but not much else (and it makes it awfully tempting to not even do that - you're opening yourself up to some risk from an overt player and you aren't actually gaining much for yourself).
Playing the overt game is intimidating - if you fuck up, everyone sees and many are waiting to pull you down. The sneaky game is considerably less scary (but infused with a sense of inferiority leading to a certain amount of ressentiment towards overt players - bullies! Mob-rousers! Cheats!).
Marios
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:07 PM
Posts: 236,
Visits: 1,827
|
|
Marios (3/6/2007)Whichever way it goes, someone is going to be frustrated - that's the stakes of the conflict game. If you were swatting down mortals, they wouldn't even have the option of weighing up frustrating versus coming back 'cause they be dead. Immortality is pretty good - I don't think you can reasonably demand invulnerability too (even if a lot of players on the other side of the game confused the two).
Agreed. It's inherent in PvP games in general, and especially so in maelstrom because it's so focussed on generating conflict - eventually someone's going to have to lose. Sucks to be them, but that's how the game is. We just have to grin and bear it and do our utmost to change the situation - IC - if we want it to get better. Immortals have that curious situation where they don't just go and die and disappear - but they obviously aren't indestructible either.
I think part of the problem is that player perceptions swing so wildly. One event, the eidolons are unstoppable mega-beasts and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them because they can't get their true names. I wouldn't be surprised if eidolons felt an OOC pressure to tone themselves down because of all this talk about how they were "unstoppable". Next event people realise that eidolons can be 'stopped' by a couple of feet of lead piping and modest legwork and a bit of determination (or by leaning on the next hosts not to include a ritual circle). Any eidolons who felt like they had to tone themselves down IC because they were "invulnerable" OOC will probably feel rather bitter - surely the opposition will now do the decent and tone themselves down in turn?
I've been guilty of it before. When certain characters were facing what appeared to be almost certain death, I found myself thinking 'oh crap...I didn't want to get them *killed*'. Having said that, there are plenty of ways to put the boot in which don't necessarily involve applying it liberally to someone's face. I'm proud of having really, really given it my best shot take-no-prisoners puppy-dog-eyes manipulation-wise over the last two years as this character - so I feel somewhat redeemed.
I don't think people should tone themselves down because, after four years, I don't think anyone really has any idea what is broken/not broken. Regularly we hear tales about how one faction or other have become 'unstoppable' - then next event they get squished. I think it's time everyone learnt to just ignore these tales as blatant propaganda for the unterhund - basic resentment/frustration-driven emotional blackmail. Your character/faction is broken/so overpowering that you are ruining the game - it's your fault I'm failing, not mine! Kindly rein yourself in. Surely everyone has caught themselves saying something like this and many have watched it swing right round as soon as they've realised that the sword does work if you point the sharp end away from you.
Definitely something one has learned is that you should *never ever* hold back for fear of breaking the game - because sooner or later, someone is going to find a way to turn the tables and they sure as hell aren't going to play nice when things come crashing down. Perception is *everything*- if you're already convinced you can't win, then you're not going to try.
I was discussing a few weeks ago the fact that maelstrom doesn't so much swing between two extremes as constantly demolish and re-configure itself in a huge combination of different ways. It's chaotic rather than cyclic. The one thing you can count on is that you can't ever count on anything specific to happen, merely that things will not stay as they are. Today's unstoppable power block is tomorrow's 'meh, what was all the fuss about?' that pales in comparison to the Next Big Issue (tm).
In short, I reckon if there'd been "Wah! Eidolons are unstoppable!" there'd have been less surprise/frustration from Eidolons (Fallen in particular) when it turned out - as anyone with any faith in the people wrote the game would have thought - that they were quite palpably stoppable. Possibly if Eidolons hadn't reined themselves in (presuming that some, at least, did), their opposition would have been forced to tumble to their vulnerabilities sooner and the revelation would have been less of a shock to Eidolons (who would have at least have been left with a sense of having made full and unrestrained-by-OOC-guilt use of the opportunities/opposition-brain-lag-factor).
Well, I must say I was bemused by the negative reaction to the 'OMGZ eidolons are unstoppable respawning death machines' thing, because I always thought it was rather cool that PD had the balls to put something so utterly different from the accepted 'death->new character' format as a playable race in their system (and this is from way back before I had even considered playing one). I'd have been somewhat disappointed if eidolons *hadn't* been immortal, alien and implacable, I think - mainly because for one thing it would suck if they only came back once and then were gone forever. Think of all the demonhunters expecting to really get their teeth into slaying immortal demons from hell...you have to provide *someone* to die on their blades/muskets, and what better way than by re-cycling PC's?
Someone's always going to be in the shit-bin. Of course, the shit-bin also happens to be one of the best places from which make to underdog political capital and launch attacks which can't be traced back to anyone who can be punished (al-Qaedish). Today's shit-bin is tomorrow's missile silo.
Words of wisdom. The best, most devious plans are the ones made when everyone can bitch together about how badly the rest of the world deserves a kicking. No complaints there. I think the major issue is that while the game-world supposedly continues outside of events, we obviously can't phys-rep it - and so there often isn't the opportunity to RP the scheming thing at all.
True, but not really eidolon specific (how many groups have been accused of being able to unbalance/destroy the game? I presume other people have played board games like Settlers of Catan and know about the strategic importance of playing up the minor advantages of other players - "A development card! It must be a victory point - that puts him on 9 pts. Just 1 away from winning!!!!" - alongside "Wah! I'm losing so hard! This sucks! The dice are broken!").
It's natural to want things to go your way - it's why we care about winning in the first place. Certainly its the case that any percieved advantage is unstoppable and game breaking and makes you terribly unsportsmanlike, any percieved weakness immediately makes X unplayable and will cause the system to stagnate and die, and any hint of compromise is automatically a failure of *something*. I'm sure we'll all get over it and come round to moaning about why Wemics are *unplayable* after the great Wemic purge of 1657, and how Facets are unstoppable magic-machines of death (gee, they're walking mana crystals, who saw that one coming?)
-----
Maelstrom: Next: We'll see... Previously: Aestar
EOS: Currently: Knight-Protector Circe, The loudest Sornassian Tin-Can in the world. Previously: Amathir of the Winterborn, a small pile of Aivelle-flavoured dust.
CP: Currently: Anzella, cerrrvazy orc berserker ja! Previously: "Breaker", Jhereg Legion
Does my ping look big in this?
|
|
|
|