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Champion
 
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Ed Fortune (4/23/2007)
even if I did ask louder than is usually polite.
It was just a little which is why I know it was important to you.
I think it's a sensitive subject and we all panic sometimes. Hopefully it has set your mind to rest a little. This event is not about the "wasn't it cool" but more about the "how did this happen."
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Wag
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Heather (4/23/2007)
It's not poorly advertised LRP.
One of the problems with the advertising for Iron Eagle is that the rulebooks that were distributed at Maelstrom appeared to have half or more of the pages missing and the remaining pages ran in non-sequential order. While this could have been deliberate, I suspect it wasn't and the overall effect was not positive from my perspective. It looked to have been a pagination mark-up issue at a glance, where the authors had not realised that what looks like sequential A4 landscape two-up on your screen does not print as sequential A4 landscape two-up when you print and bind it together. (I didn't pull one apart to check this as it wasn't my book to do so). Big printers do this using special software, small printers do it by hand using the formulae required for rearranging the pages. (If anyone wants to know how to get round this problem, I'm happy to explain it, it's a cheap but important trick). I don't know what caused the missing pages however.
The authors seemed to have further chosen to present the content (a WWII roleplaying game in which you played nazis) with something approaching an "IC" style, rather than a very dry "third person" style. Basically rules content was mixed freely with IC content and the boundaries deliberately blurred. It's not an uncommon or unappealing style that is used successfully in a lot of LRP games and even in high profile published tabletop games I've seen (think of the dozens of pages of "introduction" you get in many modern table top roleplaying games).
The problem was that the missing pages combined with the need to read the remaining pages by flicking backwards and forwards made the content very difficult to access. Given that the content draws on themes that are highly contraversial, that exacerbated the lack of clarity about how the organizers intended to handle those issues. Was this a challenging and thought provoking LRP game aiming to tackle one of the most evil philosophies ever created or was it a game for people who thought dressing up as nazis would be so cool? Looking purely at the literature I saw, I was genuinely unable to tell and that left me rather nervous about what the project intended. So I'd be critical of that advertising, the message was mixed and poorly presented when I felt clarity was strongly needed
I am sorry but I see no reason why they need to send you links or contact details of these games nor do I see the reason you feel you have the right to demand them. If you had been invited you would have received them as every organiser has the right to invite or not invite the people they choose.
In fairness I think Ed was demanding proof that such games existed, not the right to be invited. If Ed genuinely feels that such games simply do not exist, then asking for proof seems like a fair stance. I wouldn't take my ignorance of these games (which is profound) as indication that they don't exist; that seems naive. Personally I find people saying "dude they're out there, they're just closed events" is good enough for me.
But then I don't see how it's relevant that such games exist or don't exist. I don't care if the entire world has done nothing but fluffy-goddman-bunny LRP for the last 20 years, I'd still support Josh's attempt to run Iron Eagle, if done sensitively, because I'm anti-censorship. I wouldn't attack a film about nazis, why attack a game about nazis? In fact if fluffy-bunny-lrp is the only thing out there, then that's all the more reason to run Nazi: The Holocaust in my book. The only I think I like about rabbits is eating them.
To me the only issue is how you handle it. There's an enormous difference between a film about nazis and a film promoting nazis but the two may easily feature the same things, just handled and presented differently. I wouldn't censor a nazi propaganda film (or even LRP game) either, but I would encourage people to shun it.
and frankly I know a few groups who used both of those forums to screen their events and make sure asses do not attend.
I can understand that, it's important to segregate LRP to make sure the good games stay genetically pure.... 
If you don't like the idea vote with your feet and don't go, Well the point of this forum is to discuss things, so it does seem fair that we.... discuss things?
but it may be worth giving the event organisers the benifit of the doubt and trust that they as decent and inteligent human beings will approach the subject matter with all the respect it deserves. To assume is a poorer human being of lower intelect and moral values that you because you do not agree with their actions is more than a little arrogant and in this case a little ignorant.
I admit to be being unnerved by the rulebook I saw. Josh's statements here are enough to convince me this isn't a nazi drill camp masquering as a LRP game. Now I'm left wondering what all the hoohah is about. There does seem to be a genuine belief that running a game about nazis is not a good idea even if the subject is handled with kid gloves. I find that rather astonishing, especially coming from Ed, since it seems like a clear form of censorship to me.
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Wag
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Ed Fortune (4/23/2007)
Now that I gather it's a closed, invite only event of psychological horror, rather than what it seemed to be.
I can't see how the event was closed, invite only, since Josh distributed the rulebook for it at Maelstrom... I don't think he knows everyone at our events.
Personally I kinda hate the inherent elitism of invite-only events, but this is probably just cuz I ain't getting invited...  I can understand why people run them, I've been at events where I've thought "oh no, not you" and yet my ludicrous sense of over-optomism and "ain't people wonderful" can't quite get round the idea that banning every LRPer in the world in advance and then selectively choosing who to unban based on the people you like is a depressing way of handling the fact that some people are less likable than others.
In this case Ed, I'm afraid I find your sentiments even more depressing. This game should be closed because presumably then only intelligent, well-educated, "proper" people will go, as opposed to the hordes of nazi-sympathizers who would sign on if the game were open invite. That's just bullshit. By all means run a closed event if you don't want people you don't like there but please do not assume that the only way to prevent people being idiots is to treat everyone like one until given proof otherwise.
Ironically in this case, IF I were a nazi sympathiser who thought running a LRP game was a great way to promote nazism and to get people organized, informed and practicing their jackbooting and book burning then a closed game is *EXACTLY* what I would run... For a start I wouldn't want any sub-mensch attending and more importantly I'd want to run my event behind "closed doors" where people like Ed couldn't find out what was really going on, because they couldn't get in.
So I applaud any attempt to advertise this kind of game openly and freely. I just wish the literature distributed had been a little cleaer about the intent. Probably I'm being naive but I do assume that the overwhelming majority of LRPers can tell the difference between being a nazi and pretending to be a nazi. Being able to tell the difference between IC and OOC seems to be the whole point of LRP to me...
History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
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Prodigal
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Matt Pennington (4/23/2007)
[quote] I find that rather astonishing, especially coming from Ed, since it seems like a clear form of censorship to me.Though I do defend anyones right to freedom of expression, I also defend my right to express back, which is why I focused on my response. I wasn't demanding 'stop this' I was hoping for a why, which is what I got. They are plenty of things I find distasteful. I think Borat is rubbish, but I'd be outraged if they banned it. In this context, I find 'wasn't it cool' a distasteful waste of time, and possibly harmful, whereas 'why and how' seems more interesting. There's no reason to trat the 'why and how' with kid gloves, as everyone's agreed to play what sounds like a rather harrowing but no less enjoyable game.
Fan made FAQ Rules here. Maelstrom Community links: Livejournal , Myspace, Facebook , Orkut , the Frappr Map of Players and Flickr photosharing . See also the List of Allegiance based webgroups and Helen's list of Event Photo Websites . The chatroom is: irc.esper.net , #maelfroth . See also Top Tips for Priests . My LRP CARD.
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Prodigal
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| They really do need to make it clear what it is. The intial advertising makes it look like something utterly awful, and if it wasn't for re-assurances from a source I trust, I'd be more concerned. Matt Pennington (4/23/2007)
For a start I wouldn't want any sub-mensch attending and more importantly I'd want to run my event behind "closed doors" where people like Ed couldn't find out what was really going on, because they couldn't get in....
Oh if it was, and I heard about it, I'd find a way.I agree that the doors should be as open as possible, but given what it appeared to be ("wasn't it cool") and what it is ("morality play"), I'm quite glad there's a vetting process, which sounds to me like 'you know what this is, yeah?', rather than some sinister 'proper people only' process. Which is sensible, especially given the first impressions. If nothing else, to avoid selling them the wrong product. Matt Pennington (4/23/2007)
LRPers can tell the difference between being a nazi and pretending to be a nazi. Being able to tell the difference between IC and OOC seems to be the whole point of LRP to me...Making sure you've got people who can tell the difference is important for any event, but it goes double sometimes. Personally, I've had quite enough of coping with people turning up to LRP in SS uniforms behaving like bastards to last a lifetime.
Fan made FAQ Rules here. Maelstrom Community links: Livejournal , Myspace, Facebook , Orkut , the Frappr Map of Players and Flickr photosharing . See also the List of Allegiance based webgroups and Helen's list of Event Photo Websites . The chatroom is: irc.esper.net , #maelfroth . See also Top Tips for Priests . My LRP CARD.
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Champion
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My reponse was in referance to the comment that seemed to imply that if a game was not known then it was in fact poorly advertised which is not necessarily the case. Hopefully the guys will have taken the feedback regarding their literature on board but I really don't feel I'm in a position to comment on another's spelling or DTP skills. Pots, kettles and their general tendancy towards blackness really would not cover it
In fairness I think Ed was demanding proof that such games existed, not the right to be invited
I know.
I usually run invite only games, but the term can be a bit misleading. I tend to think of them as small events that get advertised by word of mouth. Fortuantely I can do that as the roof over my head and the food on my table do not rely on the attendance of my events so have a little more lea way. It's less about elitisim and more about game sizes and I will admit I am most likely to ask the people I enjoy role playing with or think might like it before I mention it to other people and folks are always welcome to tell their friends, which they do. Fortunatly I've yet to turn away anyone who has asked unless we are fully booked and even then they still get to come as they crew until a space becomes clear. However if I know someone to be really unpleasant and a touble maker, some one who will go out of their way to try and spoil an event for their own personal gratification, then yes I will tell them they cannot come as with smaller events it is far easier for one unpleasant individual to ruin the game for everyone else. It's simply harder to loose them in the crowd. If you behave like an ass then why should I invite you to my party?
Mind you may have noticed, I have an extremely high tolerance level
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Wag
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Heather (4/23/2007)
The first to me equates to the exploration of the trauma, the guilt, the fear that "if I am not seen to conform then I will die, those I love will die" or the realisation of "I've become a monster" is a fascinating exploration of the human psyche and a truely indepth role play challenge whilst the latter is frankly just an insult to the trauma so many millions under went, yet it is the latter that is more accepted.
To be fair, while the approach your describing does seem superior to 'grr I'm evil' it's also seems inferior - as a window into an alien culture - to exploring an orthodox believer. There are going to have been Nazis who participated only because they felt threatened/they felt their families were threatened - it's not terribly hard to imagine how that would feel (in the sense that it's easier to imagine them having contemporary attitudes, whether they did or not) - more interesting are the people who actually believed in that culture. Ditto, there's more to be gained in exploring the psyche of the Nazi who is conflicted about some of the things that need to be done, but basically feels that these are simply hard decisions that need to be made (since they don't end up simply reflecting our contemporary attitudes straight back at us).
There's an unfortunate tendency to view cultures from the position of someone who, it just so happens, doesn't actually share many of that cultures beliefs (there's a significant amount of selection - Persepolis was all about Iran, but viewed through the eyes of someone who had so little in common with most Iranians that she left and now lives in France - Wild Swans is better, but still the author makes a point of how little she had in common with the other kids while growing up). It leads to a rather unrepresentative inside view in which terrible things happen but no 3-dimensional characters seem to will them.
Marios
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