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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 9:12 AM
Heroic Knight

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ChessyPig (4/13/2007)
I'm not at all sure why people are quite so twitchy about Nazis. We happily play evil bastards who think all cat-people are subhuman nuisances who should be spit-roasted and eaten, what's so different about the same thing one step closer to reality?

Imagine the people who you know who shouldn't be allowed to play certain character types. Now imagine them playing actual nazis.



Dont listen to me, I don't larp any more.
Post #25822
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 10:35 AM


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ChessyPig (4/13/2007)
I'm not at all sure why people are quite so twitchy about Nazis. We happily play evil bastards who think all cat-people are subhuman nuisances who should be spit-roasted and eaten, what's so different about the same thing one step closer to reality?


Precisely because it is so much closer to reality. When you commit genocide on intelligent talking cats it loses a lot of the impact that it would have if you commit genocide on intelligent talking Jews... Just writing that I find the sentence structure "intelligent talking cats" inherently humorous, I can't find anything at all that makes me laugh about "intelligent talking Jews". When several million people die in the most appalling way the whole event contains significantly more impact than when we imagine that several thousand make believe cats have just died.

I'm not suggesting that such games can't be played, just that they inherently have more impact and consequently they need to be handled with greater consideration.

Imagine you have two kids. You go out one day and they're playing cowboys and Indians. Dressing up, running round shooting each other, etc. You *might* consider that pretty harmless. I know I would. Then on Monday you discover that they are dressing up in Nazi uniforms and pretending to lock each other in the shower cubicle and gas each other. Still feeling pleased about their fertile imagination and impressive costume making skills? I wouldn't be... Pretending to kill cats is not the same as pretending to kill Jews...


History is an important source for LRP. Along with other works of fiction.
Post #25838
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 11:41 AM
Prodigal

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Matt Pennington (4/13/2007)
Imagine you have two kids. You go out one day and they're playing cowboys and Indians. Dressing up, running round shooting each other, etc. You *might* consider that pretty harmless. I know I would. Then on Monday you discover that they are dressing up in Nazi uniforms and pretending to lock each other in the shower cubicle and gas each other. Still feeling pleased about their fertile imagination and impressive costume making skills? I wouldn't be... Pretending to kill cats is not the same as pretending to kill Jews...

  Part of that is the fact that it's hot-blooded violence rather than cold-blooded violence, though.  For some reason the latter is usually more disturbing than the former.  For some reason, the idea of children running around pretending to shoot each other, or dueling with swords, is less disturbing than the idea of children pretending to calmly and systematically execute each other.  I'm not sure why.

  Still, I agree in that I'd imagine that little children dressing up like red Indians who talk in silly voices and get shot by brave cowboys would be less offensive to your average white Briton than it would be to your average Sioux descended from people who died at Wounded Knee.  We can talk about how awful the group in question were from a neutral observer perspective (in terms of deathtolls, etc), but I think it's likely to be quite hard to stop people from reacting differently to tragedies which their culture has a closer connection to.

  I hope Iron Eagle goes well- I would like to see a topic like this get treated seriously.  But I agree that more explicit disclaimers would be a good thing, and I personally would be a bit wary about playing this sort of game with people who I didn't already know well OC. 


  WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.

OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
Post #25854
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 1:48 PM
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nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
Still, I agree in thatI'd imagine that little children dressing up like red Indians who talk in silly voices and get shot by brave cowboys would be less offensive to your average white Briton than it would be to your average Sioux descended from people who died at Wounded Knee.We cantalk abouthow awful the group in question were from a neutral observer perspective (in terms of deathtolls, etc), but I think it's likely to be quite hard to stop people from reacting differently to tragedies which their culture has a closer connection to.


It's sort of interesting that you perceive (or perceive that English people will perceive) that there's a closer connection between English culture and the 'One True Genocide', rather than the American genocide (initially sponsored while they were part of the British Empire). Or any of a host of African genocides quite directly associated with British forces. Marketing seems to be a much closer correlate than 'part-blurred neutrality' (not that I think you're advancing that, but I'm inclined to read 'closer connection' as an implication that there's an objective - almost geographical - close connection, rather than the close connection that forms between Hamburgers and McDonalds).
Marios
Post #25886
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 2:16 PM
Heroic Knight

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No.
Its the fact that some people have living relatives who were involved in one way or another.



Dont listen to me, I don't larp any more.
Post #25893
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 2:28 PM
Prodigal

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Marios (4/13/2007)
It's sort of interesting that you perceive (or perceive that English people will perceive) that there's a closer connection between English culture and the 'One True Genocide', rather than the American genocide (initially sponsored while they were part of the British Empire). Or any of a host of African genocides quite directly associated with British forces.

Marios (4/13/2007)
Marketing seems to be a much closer correlate than 'part-blurred neutrality' (not that I think you're advancing that, but I'm inclined to read 'closer connection' as an implication that there's an objective - almost geographical - close connection, rather than the close connection that forms between Hamburgers and McDonalds).

  I didn't mean 'close' geographically speaking, I meant it in entirely in terms of perceived closeness.  I think the reason we feel 'closer' to the Holocaust than to other genocides is the fact that the people on both sides were people who we tend to consider ourselves culturally similar to (in the sense that Huntington talks about).  This means that it's harder for us to say "well, the murderers were just crazed barbarians" or "well, maybe it was wrong to kill so many people, but you have to understand that the victims were really very primitive, just crying out for some civilised government to come in and take care of them.  Of course, they were too ignorant to know that this was what they wanted, so they kept trying to fight back, and so we had to be strict, which sometimes meant regrettably large deathcounts, but what can you do?"*

  I think this fact that everyone involved was European and so harder to label as 'uncivilised' is a major reason why we're so fascinated by the topic.  This is coupled by the fact that the Holocaust seems to have a better-funded and organised memorial movement than most other genocides (or indeed the movements to memorialise the deaths of non-Jewish Nazi victims).

  I think it's generally a very good thing that the Holocaust is such an emotive topic in our culture (notwithstanding the fact that some people will manage to exploit that fact- see Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry for accusations that some self-declared Jewish groups have managed to secure extra funding for 'Holocaust victims' and then spent it on themselves, rather than on actual concentration camp survivors).  But I think it's worth noting that most other genocides don't have anywhere near the same level of recognition in our society.  This means that a larp involving Waffen SS members is almost inevitably going to make the average British person more uncomfortable than a larp involving imaginary or less well-known massacres.

  It's already clear that most British larpers feel happy with the concept of entirely fictional genocides in larp (although I must admit I've never heard of a larp which involved fictional concentration camps.  This is possibly partly because that would be difficult to physrep and OC physically uncomfortable for whoever was playing the inmates, but I think it has more to do with the fact that we still tend to be more comfortable with hot-blooded violence than with the cold-blooded kind).  Do we think that many British larpers would feel uncomfortable about the concept of larp games involving other historical genocides- e.g. a game set in 1915, where the PCs are all Turks who are at some point given the opportunity to kick the shit out of some Armenian NPCs?

  I think that most people would only feel seriously uncomfortable about it if it touched on other issues which most modern Britons are more familiar with- for example, I think a game involving British colonials massacring African people would be problematic mostly because it would raise the question of racial physreps, which I don't think people would be comfortable with because it relates to particular kinds of racism which most modern Britons are much more familiar with.

*I'm afraid I made the mistake of watching a documentary on Rider Haggard the other day, and I'm still rather upset about certain views expressed in it.  Sorry for the tangent.


  WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.

OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
Post #25895
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Prodigal

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samharber (4/13/2007)
Its the fact that some people have living relatives who were involved in one way or another.

  I think that's a factor, but then some people have living relatives who were involved in some way or another in all the other 20th century genocides.  Some of these people now live in Britain (for example, I have one acquaintance who was personally involved in the Congolese civil war, although I'm not sure if that's technically a genocide or not). Admittedly I don't know what proportion of the British people with a personal tie to mass-death specifically have a personal tie to the Holocaust.  But this still makes me inclined to feel that it's *perceived* cultural closeness which decides what most British larpers will feel most uncomfortable with.


  WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.

OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
Post #25897
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 3:38 PM
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nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
I think this fact that everyone involved was European and so harder to label as 'uncivilised' is a major reason why we're so fascinated by the topic.


Shouldn't the German Holocaust have been displaced by more recent European holocausts like the Bosnian (attempted) genocide?

It's a nice idea and it seems quite logically plausible, but I can't really see any evidence for it.

nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
This is coupled by the fact that the Holocaust seems to have a better-funded and organised memorial movement than most other genocides (or indeed the movements to memorialise the deaths of non-Jewish Nazi victims).


We have one genocide people care about, the caring about it kicked it not at the moment it was threatened, the moment of it's occurrence or the end of the war but at the beginning of it's political advantageousness (1967ish) and the initiation of it's marketing. And we have loads of other genocides - of both white and less fortunate people - which are extremely limited media interest.

I do like the idea that people are horrified by the Nazi Holocaust because they can empathise with German Nazis more easily than they can with Rwandan Hutus - calling someone a Nazi has more punch than calling them a Hutu - but I don't think that really defines the Holocaust as a singular Jewish genocide. I don't think the marketing of the Holocaust really swings on people empathising with German Nazis.

nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
I think it's generally a verygood thingthat the Holocaust is such an emotive topic in our culture (notwithstanding the fact that some people will manage to exploit that fact- see Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry for accusations that some self-declared Jewish groups have managed to secure extra funding for 'Holocaust victims' and then spent it on themselves, rather than onactual concentration camp survivors).


This seems a bit pat 'gross self-interest but probably in a good cause'. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'good' - depending on your prejudices you might see irrational political ammunition (right-wing = evil/nothing bad happens in Russia, at least not to people we give a shit about/whatever Israel needs to do to prevent another Holocaust is justified).

Naively, I used to think 'bit dodgy, but at least it helps suppress the incidence of genocide'. Then I saw some numbers. I'm really, really not convinced that focusing on the Holocaust as the Only True genocide - a 'singular historical event' (Elie Wiesenthal) - has actually lead to any 'anti-genocide' policies. If anything, the Holocaust industry has actively suppressed recognition of competing genocides - 'nothing can compare' (Elie Wiesenthal) - monopolised the industry squeezing out politically inconvenient competitors (you'll never see mention of the Armenian genocide in the official Holocaust monuments). By and large, the Holocaust seems to stand for a disinterest in history, perspective or comparisons.

On the one hand, yes it does give White European racism a bad name, but on the other hand it also serves to elevate racism as a going concept that people can be justly proud of, if they can simply define themselves as victims. Via some amazing magic, people who were never in concentration camps and have no relations who were in concentration camps, deserve racial compensation. On the flip side, people who had nothing to do with those concentration camps or any relatives running them, bear a debt of guilt towards the entire victimised race.

I find it rather amazing/impressive that the message that comes out of the concentration camps isn't that we are all the same - i.e. that any of us could have been on the inside or the outside - or even that all of the victims became one people through suffering - Poles, Jews, Homosexuals, Communists - but that these distinctions really _are_ very important. It's not seeing things in black-and-white that's wrong, it's that the Nazi's got the colours the wrong way around.

nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
But I think it's worth noting that most other genocides don't have anywhere near the same level of recognition in our society.


What's more important - recognition of suffering that occurred 50+ years ago or recognition of suffering occurring right now?

Why is a genocide of 10,000 people of the same race more important than the equivalent murder of 10,000 people of mixed races - bar the potential loss of unique anthropological data?

nesciomancer (4/13/2007)
which I don't think people would be comfortable with because it relates to particular kinds of racism which most modern Britons are much more familiar with.


'Familiar with' makes it sound like a rational response to something you've observed. The times when I've been most shocked by racism are the times when I've been least familiar with it (many years spent in a universit