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Live roleplaying's greatest cheerleader...
 
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Richie H-R (10/9/2006)
"all black people are thieves" and "this black person is a thief"."all black people are thieves" - Racism, due to racial generalisation and assumptions. "this black person is a thief" - Racism, due to the strange need to point out someones skin tone in a statement that is not related. Hey Richie do I pass the test? Is this one of those trick questions? I hope it is.
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ShelfordFX
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Devil's Advocate
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Yes but at the same time he mentioned that non muslims may find the veils intimidating and that it would be nicer all round if they weren't worn. It can't be easy wearing one of those veils all day, enduring the inconvenience of it and the attention (in some areas). These people obviously wear them for a damn good reason, something that is important to them. So Mr Straw decides to point out these cultural differences and suggests people change to fit in. Maybe certain people should act whiter, stop listening to that reggae music, stop being so Jewish. Come on....get real.
Where does he say that? Certainly doesn't say that in the article posted here. Seems he suggests that veils by definition put up barriers, and that he discussed it with the woman in question.
and "this black person is a thief" is not racist if it's a statement of fact.
Unless you are arguing that labelling someone "Black" or "white" is in itself racist?
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Live roleplaying's greatest cheerleader...
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| Here ya go, from the BBC link here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5411954.stm Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather." Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people. "Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said. Oh and I do consider needlessly pointing out peoples differences as rascist.
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Heroic Knight
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| Jack Straw said he asks Muslim women to remove their veils when they see him, because he feels this improves communication. I would suggest that generally the ability to see the person with whom you're conferring is advantageous in communication. His hearing impairment is added weight to his reason for finding it significantly easier to communicate with people whose faces are visible, but I feel is not especially relevant as he did not cite this specifically (I know about the disability because my Dad was asked to trim his beard to make lip reading easier for Jack Straw at a meeting he was at - it was all informal and polite "just thought I'd mention, Jack...blah blah", and caused no problems). Straw adds that this has always been met with a willingness to remove said veil. Importantly, he affirms his agreement that it is a woman's right to wear the veil, and does not say that he would refuse to see a veiled woman, simply that he identified a barrier to communication, and made an active decision to try and remove this barrier. This does not conflict with his responsibilities as an MP. He's not made a call for others to follow suit, and importantly, he has many Muslims in his constituency (if memory serves me). Obviously his opinion will have weight with others, but I do not feel it is discriminatory. I'd say its good food for thought on the "is our society too accepting of other cultures, and unintentionally encouraging a separationist nation of many cultures with little interpersonal interaction" discussion.
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Heroic Knight
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Shelford (10/9/2006)
Tart (10/9/2006)
From reading the article, it seems all Jack Straw does is ask them to remove their veils, which it seems they are happy to do. Yes but at the same time he mentioned that non muslims may find the veils intimidating and that it would be nicer all round if they weren't worn. It can't be easy wearing one of those veils all day, enduring the inconvenience of it and the attention (in some areas). These people obviously wear them for a damn good reason, something that is important to them. So Mr Straw decides to point out these cultural differences and suggests people change to fit in. Maybe certain people should act whiter, stop listening to that reggae music, stop being so Jewish. Come on....get real. I just read the linked article in the Lancashire Times, and I couldn't see any reference to Straw saying that. Please quote specifics - especially about him feeling other people find the veil intimidating. That might change my opinion on the subject, but I couldn't find it. EDIT: Sorry, hadn't seen your post about the radio interview. Have you got a source for the intimidation part?
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Live roleplaying's greatest cheerleader...
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The 'intimidation' quote was me mis-quoting.......... apologies. On reading the article again he doesn't mention that exactly but he does clearly state that he would prefer veils not to be worn at all in the community to aid communication. Which yeah may be logical but walks all over peoples cultural beliefs.
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Heroic Knight
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Shelford (10/9/2006)
Oh and I do consider needlessly pointing out peoples differences as rascist.I would expect that the black person thief example was referring to the controversial statistic produced by the Police Force. I would argue that in this case the information is of use, thus not racist by your definition. I accept that this is complete side track of little relevance to the main discussion. NB: rac·ism (rszm) n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. racism
n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically
superior to members of other races
2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of
another race [syn: racialism, racial discrimination]
Both would make your definition incorrect. Unless your argument is that you infer racism is present in those who mention race where you feel it is unneccessary.
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Live roleplaying's greatest cheerleader...
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Yep that's a side track/issue.....
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