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Devil's Advocate
 
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(fuck it, it's muggers alley, i'll open this can of worms)
What are you saying? We in the UK are better, more honest and upstanding people,(than whom?) because our faces are usually naked?
How about yes we are - because we generally don't oppress our women by forcing them to cover up in deference to non-exitent entities...
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I do talk a good fight
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Most or all Muslim women in the UK who cover their heads or faces do so of their own volition, not because some bloke is forcing them to. I challenge you to find ONE instance of a Muslim woman complaining that she's forced to wear a veil. I don't believe they're quite that oppressed that NONE of them dare speak out.
A lot of the time you'll get the younger people in a family being more radical than their elders -- there are plenty of 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim immigrants to the UK who cover up far more than their mothers or grandmothers do. It's a personal choice, based on a religious commitment.
I agree that the doctrines of Islam generally are pretty repellent, anti-equality, and anti-freedom -- even more so than many of the doctrines of Christianity -- but I'm not going to argue that people shouldn't be allowed to be Muslims, or Christians for that matter. (I exclude from my otherwise blanket condemnation of Christianity those Christians who sensibly follow only the instructions that are documented as having been said by Christ in the Gospels, rather than listening to the ravings of any Pope, priest, church, commentator, or other such purported authority.)
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Devil's Advocate
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So if it's religious/cultural indocrination, that's ok is it?
Just like all the women who agree to FGM in the name of tradition...
I put it to you that these people aren't making a free choice to veil themselves in the same way that we might choose to wear a hat.
(oh and BTW, I had no-idea Jack Straw was deaf)
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Wag
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| Actually Tart, they're making a choice to be Muslim- just like your apparent choice to be an atheist. You may disagree with what they believe but have no right to condemn it, just because you don't believe it yourself (condemning Islam or any other religion for specifics is fine). It doesn't matter that Straw is deaf- in fact he should be more sensitive to externally imposed restrictions- as an elected politician he needs to be aware of the cultural issues relating to his constituents, and even if Muslim women only wear veils because they are forced to (which experience tells me isn't true) he should still realise that they will be uncomfortable in his company and that this will be even worse if they are expected to bare their faces.
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Knight
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this does beg the question.
have you actually ever spoken to a muslim woman?
I won't suggest it not indoctrination for all, there may be some who will get beaten for not wearing it, in the same way that there are girls of any faith (or of no faith) who may get beaten for not dressing the way their parents want them too.
but seriously, for every muslim woman I know its a choice thing, and more importantly, none of your damn business.
Jack Straw is supposed to represent these people. He can say it makes his life easier, but its no different than suggesting Christians remove their crucifixes because he finds it distracting.
If he can't communicate with muslim women wearing a veil then how the fuck did he end up with the job he has. I'm expected to believe that this guy can represent our country abroad to, say, arab nations for example.
absurd. he's bandwagon jumping in a stupid and offensive manner, fuelling the undercurrents of anti islamic sentiment developing in this country. It doesn't bode well or "to fight terorism we need to embrace the islamic community not isolate them".
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Devil's Advocate
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My argument is purely this:
If we agree that human rights are absolute, then they by definition transcend culture. ie. cultural relativism isn't enough to justify things that we would otherwise find repellent whether it be Homophobic Catholic doctrine, or repressive islamic doctine, or tribal FGM, or whatever.
Incidently the subject of newsreaders/TV hosts not being able to wear crucifixes while muslim women are allowed to be veiled was brought up in debate on TV on sunday.
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Wag
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| Yes Kol, loads of them,as colleagues, clients and friends- I never met one who felt oppressed, in fact amny of them describe how liberating it is to be able to meet people who aren't able to judge you by how physically attractive you are. Tart- the right to be free of persecution on the grounds of religion or culture are in fact Human Rights (as in the UN convention)- stopping news readers wearing crucufix's is just as dumb as banning Santa or Nativity plays- unless of course you want to stir racial hatred, against a particular group. Can anyone think of a Gov't/Establishment who need to turn their voters against Muslims at the moment?
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Devil's Advocate
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I believe the point of the debate about crucifixes was that as it currently stands, newsreaders are banned from wearing them, which is as you point out hypocritical.
Does anyone have a link to a news article about what Jack Straw has actually said? Might be able to get to the core of the matter easily that way...
Andy: Of course religious freedom is important. However, surely we are able to question those beliefs. eg I think Catholics promoting homophobia is a bad thing.
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