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Wag
 
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| Surely Jack Straw knows full well that Muslim women who cover their faces feel uncomfortable in the presence of men who are not part of their family,hence the veil. As he must know this and is asking it anyway I can only assume he is racially or religiously motivated- that is racism.
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I do talk a good fight
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Or he might be motivated by (as he claims) the fact that he finds it easier to understand people when he can see their faces... could it have something to do with the fact that he has a hearing impairment?
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?s=deafness&pid=10574
The PC lobby are completely stymied by this, surely -- if they side with Straw, they're being racist or something, whereas if they think he's unreasonable to ask to see people's lips when they speak to him, they're discriminating on the grounds of his disability.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Heroic Knight
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Then maybe before asking them to remove their clothing in front of him, he should ask them to sit on the side he can hear? Fair enough, this reason would be an acceptable one, but it is not one that he has given in this debate. The link that you used was not related to the case in point. He is, it would appear, hard of hearing, and he is also unashamed of this fact (rightly so) since he has spoken on the subject before. If it is the motivation behind asking women to unveil, why has he not stated this explicitly?
Instead he has barraged the Muslim community with judgements regarding their personal religious interpretation, judgements which are subjective, go rough-shod over their traditions, are poorly presented and represent a further expression to Muslim people that he feels that their odd and even ocasionally alarming religious sentiments are subservient to his enlightened, Western values.
_________________________________________________________________The nature of man is the same as the nature of a wolf and the same as the nature of an ox?
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I do talk a good fight
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He's said he feels communication is easier without veils (which sounds plausible). I don't believe his deafness is particularly public knowledge -- he's mentioned it once in a commons debate, in passing, but most people never read those. Maybe he doesn't want to talk about it more widely because people there's still discrimination against disabled people, and he fears people will think he's a spacker?
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Heroic Knight
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Disability didn't stop David Blunkett, did it? Or Ann Begg, Dan Malloy (Connetticut, has learning disabilities), Kristen Cox, Matthew Dunn, Neil Abercrombie,Tony Coelho, or Napoleon.
Deafness in particular has also failed to stop Rush Libaugh, in fact it's entirely possible that his impairment actually prevents him from listening to the drivel he subjects the rest of the populace to.
Come on Sturrock - your last post was a smokescreen, and a pretty thin excuse for one at that. I think it very unlikely that Straw, or any politically active person with disabilities, cares much what 11 year-olds, glue sniffers and Daily Sport readers think about having scopers in office.
_________________________________________________________________The nature of man is the same as the nature of a wolf and the same as the nature of an ox?
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I do talk a good fight
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I don't agree (obviously). Deafness is still massively stigmatized in society. People hate to admit to deafness because they KNOW people will make jokes about it (it's one of the few disabilities that's socially acceptable to laugh at, largely because communication difficulties ARE inherently funny, so it has such wide comedy potential), and because there is still an association of deafness with stupidity ("deaf & dumb" etc.).
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Champion
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| Coming from a culture where it is considered polite to raise your hat when meeting someone, I would feel insulted if someone spoke to me without showing his/her face. More so if this happened in my own house or office. In fact, I doubt I would even let veiled people in. If people have religious reasons not to show their faces, then they have religious reasons not to speak to me. This is not just a sentiment, but part of a moral structure involving openness and honesty, with ties to both the ability to read peoples` faces and the willingness to be identified with ones words and actions. A structure deeply rooted in tradition and cultural identity, that would start to unravel if we`re going to make exceptions. What`s the point of meeting face to face if you`re not going to show yours? Edwin
________________________________________________________ - IRL: Edwin Hofstra
- - mostly crewing at the moment
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Heroic Knight
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Ian Sturrock (10/8/2006)
I don't agree (obviously). Deafness is still massively stigmatized in society. People hate to admit to deafness because they KNOW people will make jokes about it (it's one of the few disabilities that's socially acceptable to laugh at, largely because communication difficulties ARE inherently funny, so it has such wide comedy potential), and because there is still an association of deafness with stupidity ("deaf & dumb" etc.).
'Suddenly struck dumb' doesn't imply stupidity, but silence. Deaf and dumb is an outdated colloquial term for deaf-mute, and has nothing to do with stupidity. You've taken it out of context. As usual, you fall back onto semantics when the substance of your argument fails.
As for the stigmatisation of disability, yes, it does still occur widely, and in no way related to comedic effect (I have heard no negative comments from sufferers of disability with regards to Little Britain, for example). However, and correct me if I'm not being working class enough here, the opinions people that still entertain negative stereotypes of disability are simply not worth thinking about - except with regards to reeducation - which has progressed significantly within our lifetimes. And we aren't talking about a kid at secondary school who's worried about people jeering behind his back. Straw is a politician, and has to accept that people may (just possibly) make fun of him for any and all reasons. In fact, deafy jokes are the least of his worries. I mean, this is a guy who has been compared unfavourably with Joachim von Ribbentrop!
I think that if he has made this request as a result of his disability, then an honest admission of the reason for his request would render it a lot more palatable to the vast majority, and certainly to the 'bleeding heart liberals' who find it so shocking. As it is, he has not defended his request with reference to any disability, and I can only surmise that this is becase he simply doesn't make the request for this reason, or that (more insidiously) he wishes to gain political capital by appearing to be motivated to ask this of Muslim women for reasons of ideology and 'defending Britain's culture and traditions against the Moslem Interloper'.
_________________________________________________________________The nature of man is the same as the nature of a wolf and the same as the nature of an ox?
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