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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
 
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Andy Rimmer (10/11/2006)
[b]Flannel (10/11/2006)[/It is infact EVERYONE in the world. . Excepting of course millions of Muslims. Erm.... made me think but... No... including all Muslims...everyone.... cover your face in a face to face conversation and you will be treated differently and communicated with differently than someone who doesn't. Being a member of a religion which has sects that claim that the veil is a neccessary thing does not actually make you immune to this since its a basic result of Human speech and communication methods.
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Knight
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Flannel (10/11/2006)
Kolin Ford (10/11/2006)
no. whichever way I look at this their is no point in talking to Flannel. If you don't want to talk to me.....Then don't ask me questions you imbecile. How thick are you? either you wanted a response from me or not. If you don't want a response from me don't pose me one of your asanine questions. I note that you only take this stance when you are unable to provide a response to a point raised. Was there any relevance to your question? No. So why on earth did you raise it? Surely you could explain that?Yet again you don't explain why... because you can't. you see, thats what I'm not prepared to do. Edit a post after I've made it. go on Alick, have the last word. I'm done.
___________________________________________________________
"The infamous minus Kol"
"There are three types of people, those who ignore it, those who complain about it, and those who do something about it. I don't care which one you are, just don't kid yourself into thinking you're something you're not."
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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Kolin Ford (10/11/2006)
you see, thats what I'm not prepared to do. Edit a post after I've made it. What on earth are you drivelling about? I didn't edit the post after you'd replied or after you quoted. Are you just desperately flailing for something to accuse me of or are you actually going to sod off and ignore me like you keep promising to do. Or maybe, perhaps possibly you might deign to answer someones response to your posts coherently? Or possibly post a comment with relevance. Or explain the nonsense you posted in the first place? We live in hope that your intellect lives somewhere above vegetable matter... but not much hope.
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Knight
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Still a pedant I see Flannel.
You do posses an uncanny ability to reduce argument down to the simplest level it's just a shame that at that level all the interest in the discussion is lost but as pointed out you're really interested in winning.
Flannel (10/11/2006)
I didn't edit the post after you'd replied or after you quoted. But you did edit it didn't you? To try and look less like a twat? I'm guessing after he read it but that's not the point right? I know it's a cheap shot but it's so easy to do.
To be fair you're trying to concentrate on the important points beyond the minutia but why only start now? Is it that you look as deep as you need to win?
You're almost being duplicitous about the real point which I think was simply:
Tart (10/11/2006)
Jack Straw is asking someone to remove a veil that represents something to these people. The question is: Should he be allowed to?So you're looking for a binary answer? Surely you can count to more than one?
Tart (10/11/2006)
The answer is "Yes" as he is requesting, not demanding. Once the request is made, the individual can decide if they want to remove it or not. end of story.I take "end of story" to mean that two was too complicated in this case? Yes is obviously the correct binary choice. It's just stupid the way people try to apply it that way in to real life. There's a degree of difference between me asking my mates wife to take of her veil and a government representative who is in a position of power to help with their request asking a virtual stranger. It's another stage again to say it to a broadcaster. Has he simply distanced the Muslim Community from the government by demonstrating a lack of understanding? I say that because at the moment anyway I don't see the benefits gained by communication without masks as greater than the apparent lack of understanding of the religious implications of wearing the veil the request communicates. For people who wear the veil the religious connotations are so much more important than communication. It can look like their belief are less important then being able to communicate with people.
Definitely a discussion that needs to be had because while I aspire to Tarts utopian idea of 1+1 equals 11 we aren't there yet. I feel it needs Mr Straw or whoever to make it clearer that there are religious concerns not just make it about communication. Progress lies in the wide middle ground not a small point towards the edges. I could well be wrong about that, is it really a better made and more inclusive point?
Feel free to say that's not the point you're making or that's not what was said.
Flannel (10/11/2006) originally posted just
Then don't ask me questions you imbecile.
Now that's just unfair he gave you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just a troll and talking too you would help expanded the debate. Now he was wrong but at least he took the time to find out. All that response is going to do is put people off trying to helping the less fortunate members of society.
When are we going to rename this board "under the bridge"? 
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Devil's Advocate
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Since the only evidence we have for the people reactions to this is Jack Straw's account - where he states the women have been more than happy to do so, and in some cases were "relieved" to be asked to unveil, I think this shows that Muslim women (or at least, those muslim women) are more than happy to be asked.
I don't think it shows a lack of understanding at all.
If you were inviting a jewish friend round for dinner, would you cook pork? or not cook pork? or perhaps ASK if he minded?
If you are seriously suggesting the Muslim community as a whole are outraged by a question/request I think that we have much much bigger problems at hand, as it would imply that they are totally intolerent of anyone daring to question any aspect of their fath.
Though i really think that outrage is assumed on your part, and not borne out by the facts.
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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DavidM (10/11/2006)
Still a pedant I see Flannel. You do posses an uncanny ability to reduce argument down to the simplest level it's just a shame that at that level all the interest in the discussion is lost but as pointed out you're really interested in winning. Flannel (10/11/2006)
I didn't edit the post after you'd replied or after you quoted. But you did edit it didn't you? To try and look less like a twat? I'm guessing after he read it but that's not the point right? I know it's a cheap shot but it's so easy to do. If you want to fling accusations please relate them to something substantive, which you are actually informed about. You'll notice he didn't complain about a change of content. Given Kols inanity I suspect had he had anything substantive to complain about he would have done, with glee as it would have diverted peope from his inability to back up any nof his statements. He didn't. The edit was done to correct spelling and add to not delete content. Which makes your post a bit irrelevant really... so the reason your actually commenting?
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Cold Water and Brass Tacks
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DavidM (10/11/2006)
Flannel (10/11/2006) originally posted just
Then don't ask me questions you imbecile.Now that's just unfair he gave you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just a troll and talking too you would help expanded the debate. Now he was wrong but at least he took the time to find out. All that response is going to do is put people off trying to helping the less fortunate members of society. Eh? Which less fortunate members of society are you talking about? How does me telling Kol to explain himself when he refuses to continue a debate after he asks a question put off people from helping people? I answered his questions (which were not related to the debate) and asked him to give reasons for requiring more specific knowledge. I also asked him to answer the earlier points raised in response to him. He did neither. He refused to answer and decided not to talk for reasons ungiven.... which you seem to know about via some psychic means.
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Overlord
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| [Mod hat on]Dear All, Please take a breath and calm down. There's some fab informative points in here, but we're all really losing out on this debate by it being 1) overly longwinded and 2) all the sniping and pedantry. Derailing arguments are not cool, neither is essay like condescension. The guidelines really are helpful you know... there aren't any winners and losers in discussions just hopefully, better informed people. [mod hat off]
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