|
|
|
Champion
 
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:54 PM
Posts: 320,
Visits: 1,143
|
|
Kolin Ford (9/27/2006)
there are very few situations where it is necessary (the butlers at a dinner party example is one, but then you can't do that on your own (ref! I want to poison the butler, d'oh!).
Seeing as the Ref’s are suddenly vastly less intrusive visually than people wearing neon jackets and Ref hats it’s possible to have more than one of the staff in the dinning hall at the same time without it looking like a Ref cluster.
Saying that however, the poisoning problem should hold a problem in writing the system (by considering Refless poisoning rules) rather than whilst the system is running.
---
PD: Mister Cry, Philosopher of Stone.
LT: Whimsy, Archer's Guild Fae Butler.
SOS: Kethren Fable, The Queen's Killer.
Vikings: Plot writing Mikey (with eagle eye action)
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: 2 days ago @ 5:02 PM
Posts: 151,
Visits: 1,160
|
|
I've mostly seen this happen in small linear-based systems, where you don't have enough bodies for one person to stand around doing nothing (as refs are wont to do  ).
It can mean that you don't have to waste time briefing someone with a complex background, or worse, a complicated set of stats. You can reduce the chance of giving someone some informatioin they really won't want to know when they play on the next adventure.
On the other hand, this can lead to all kinds of sillyness, where given a set of similar-looking monsters, the players will assume that the one played by the ref is the one worth talking to, or killing really quickly.
Ideally, all monster roles should be important.
(chris)
|
|
|
|
|
Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 2:17 PM
Posts: 72,
Visits: 297
|
|
Mikey (9/27/2006)
Seeing as the Ref’s are suddenly vastly less intrusive visually than people wearing neon jackets and Ref hats it’s possible to have more than one of the staff in the dinning hall at the same time without it looking like a Ref cluster.Don't make the mistake of thining that the way fests ref is the only way to do it. Hats and neon is a hall mark of fests where refs need to be identifiable in a crowd or at a distance. I've rarelly seen at at smaller events. we used the butler plan whenever the players ran a soiree. Lets you discreetly make calls, help people out when they need it and control the action. The only downside is that it becomes awkward to run a "the butler did it" storyline since that blurs the ic/oc divide. ("I saw him talking to the Grim Demon as he was leaving.") Just two people on either side of the dinner hall is enough. or B> establish that the butlers are an ic/oc grey area and shouldn't be treated like real characters. or C> run the whole thing as self reffing. there are no secret ref chats allowed or needed in the system. (Edited to add: I could have phrased this better as it makes ity sound like I'm having a go. This a common problem with my posts. I could have just said "yes, that would work" in response to Mikey.  )
___________________________________________________________
"The infamous minus Kol"
"There are three types of people, those who ignore it, those who complain about it, and those who do something about it. I don't care which one you are, just don't kid yourself into thinking you're something you're not."
|
|
|
|
|
Wag
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:39 PM
Posts: 1,141,
Visits: 3,626
|
|
| When I ran Brink we had a quite revolutionary idea of making the referee 'the Computer'. The event was set on a space station, the space station systems were all controlled by the Computer. To do anything (including contacting outside resources) you had to process the request through the computer. The computer had a holographic interface (phys repped by the ref in costume walking about the room, interacting with the other characters) and was programmed to be impartial. It was also completely immune to any attack - including hacking at the levels of that skill the players had (though the players could try...). Besides, anyone capable of damaging the computer would have been aware that it was tied into life support and security and so damaging the computer risked killing everyone... The computer was therefore able to handle most of the OOC stuff - much of which involved the movement and activation of resources which were not on the station. We also had some other refs in costume hanging around in case there was a long wait for access to the computer or to handle things that they possibly did not want the computer knowing about. And that is the main way you can avoid many of the cons of refs in costume - multiple refs. I personally like to make sure that any permanent crew members are just as capable and authorised to make ref calls as I am. I make sure that these people are pointed out to the players at the start of the game. This means that for any plot/skill use calls, there is a choice of currently 5 people able to make a ruling. In some cases they may wish to consult with me before making a ruling or rule that the player should come to see me If it is a really big decision) but in general it works. More than one ref playing more than one NPC also means that you can choose one who is not linked directly to the plot you want to work with. Want to poison the butler? Then talk to the ref who is playing the drunken dilletente. Though non ref linked skills are also useful. I have also been in situations where, as a ref, I have been worked on by the players. At Pirates I played the drunken gambling addict Captain of the Militia. When he started causing trouble for the players, they planned to drug him. OOC I saw them slip the poison in. I decided IC that he was too drunk to notice. A quick whispered OOC conversation with the player told me what the effects were and I played it out. I like the fact that refs and crew can be 'hidden' by being dressed IC. I also do not think any of the cons are ones that cannot be overcome with a bit of common sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:45 PM
Posts: 195,
Visits: 224
|
|
Actually Balor, I used exactly the same interface for ship computers during my Scavenger events. A hologram computer is a really practical way of being able to roleplay a computer interface while still being able to be flexible, adaptable and knowelegable of the players' actions.
I'm a huge fan of Refs being NPCs large or small, and having a ref team of 2-3 people for an event of up to 20 players. Essentially, I loathe having anyone wandering around "not being there" for ruining the immersion of an event, and would rather have people available as NPCs who can be discreetly asked about a rules question, or asked for a bead draw or whatever. Invariably you need to have someone with their hand in their air wander round making calls after a big combat or whatever, but it generally falls in the cooldown periods rather than during the action and roleplay.
That said, as observed above, you need to create a system where the rules mechanics do not focus on "asking for ref calls". As I hate that sort of mechanic anyhow, I avoid it...
_____________________________
Maelstrom - Carl Whitesnake
Scavenger LRP - Organiser
|
|
|
|
|
Wag
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:39 PM
Posts: 1,141,
Visits: 3,626
|
|
| Of course, for multiple refs you need to make sure that you can trust them all. You also need to make sure that they have basic guidelines on how things should work in that particular event. One essential thing you need for any multi ref set up is a firm and strict policy: No one ref can over-rule a decision made by any other ref no matter how stupid that decision. This is important for maintaining the integrity of the system. If one ref gives one answer which the player does not like they should not have the recourse to ask another ref the same question and keep on doing this until they get the answer they want. Similarly, it prevents 'rewriting of history' set ups - once a decision has been made it is made and the effect has happened. The hologram idea does work well. I intend to use it again sometime. Another thing I have found works well is the idea of an IC NPC host. Where ever the players are, be it a tavern, a research base, whatever, there is a person who is effectively the owner/commander whatever of that facility. That person is an NPC with ref powers. They can do a lot of the general ref calls without needing to break ICness.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
|
|
|
|
|
Heroic Knight
Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Yesterday @ 11:40 PM
Posts: 155,
Visits: 1,634
|
|
balor (9/27/2006)
Of course, for multiple refs you need to make sure that you can trust them all. You also need to make sure that they have basic guidelines on how things should work in that particular event. One essential thing you need for any multi ref set up is a firm and strict policy: No one ref can over-rule a decision made by any other ref no matter how stupid that decision. I dunno, I'd add the caveat that no ref may be overruled by another ref during a game. I'd hate to have a game ruined by a bad ref call. It'd probably be worth having some sort of way of the refs communicating their ref calls to each other when they've been made, so you don't get one ref OK'ing something, and then have another ref feel the need to check/intervene.
|
|
|
|
|
Wag
Group: System Moderators
Last Login: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:39 PM
Posts: 1,141,
Visits: 3,626
|
|
| Yes, I should have added 'during a game' to that. During discussions about downtime and rules and so on, the refs decision is final. I've learnt from past experience that it is far better to let a bad decision stand and learn from the mistake than try to flange something back together. For example, if a bad ref call leads to a player character surviving or dying when a better ref call would give the opposite result (say a ref decides that a particular method of healing works or doesn't work in that situation) then you are better letting the character stay dead/remain alive thereby supporting the call than suddenly have them 'have been alive all along' or 'have been dead all along'. After the event the player can then voice any complaints about their treatment and it can be dealt with OOC. It can also be decided among all the refs whether that decision is an ongoing one - i.e. everytime the players perform that action it will work the same way - or if it was just a one off flook and will never happen again now that all the refs are aware of the possibility and how to deal with it. For example, at one of the early Waypoint games, there was a Syntha character who was injured. Normally, Syntha cannot be healed by 'normal medicine' - they need a specialist repair skill. This is one of the disads which balance out the various advantages - immune to psi, immune to poison and disease, effectively immortal, tougher than normal humans etc. The players wanted to try something unorthodox - using cybel nanite packs to heal the syntha. The ref who was on hand ruled that it worked. Now, I would not have made that decision. I may have let the players get away with a completely different flange but not that one. However, the ref had made their decision and I stuck by it. In addition, after the event I incorporated that decision into the rules. It means things are slightly less bad for Syntha but I don't think it has had a significant effect on gameplay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
|
|
|
| | |