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Wag
 
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Maybe US marines should recieve lessons in discipline and following orders- politicians deal with ethics, soldiers follow their orders.
In the British military US troops are notorious for their lack of discipline and there are many stories about their "gung ho" attitude-ranging from USAAF phantoms strafing HMS Ark Royal during the Vietnam War (despite having a Union Flag painted on the entire flight deck), to tanks on exercise in Germany carrying Beer instead of ammo and of course the huge number of British casualties in both Gulf Wars lost to American "friendly fire".
Ultimately these Marines will feel the full weight of American "Justice"- not because of the wrong they did, but because they got caught and embarassed their corrupt masters back home!
The US gov't doesn't care about corrupt regimes, unless they stop doing as they are told-look at Saudi Arabia if you want to see a human rights record- and they didn't invade Iraq to save the people, they did it to regain control of the region.
The whole weapons of mass destruction thing was a sham- of course Iraq had them, they bought them from the US and the UK while they where at war with Iran, but we all know that they'd already used them.
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Champion
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Binidj (6/2/2006)What if they had been cheering at the results of the attack on the soldiers? Or if they had been throwing rocks? Or had acted as spotters for the guerrilla fighters that orchestrated the attack? Well, the first two should not warrant deadly force by any stretch of the imagination and the last one makes them accessories rather than the actual offenders and should result in trial and imprisonment.
Ascendancy LRP: Redvers Fenn-Cooper Crimson Requiem: Crew Real Life: Doug McKerracher Quis custodiet ipsos custard?
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Heroic Knight
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| Now, now ... let's not shift goalposts here. You said: Mr Dreadful (6/5/2006)
civilians who have done nothing wrong should still be regarded as 'the enemy' and killed
To which I responded that we didn't know that they had done nothing wrong, we simply assumed it because the general trend seems to be the demonisation of our own, and allied, troops.I don't know the truth of the incident, despite the reports I've read; but I refuse to judge a situation based solely on trial by tabloid.
"When I want your opinion, I'll read it from your steaming entrails"
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Wag
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To which I responded that we didn't know that they had done nothing wrong, we simply assumed it because the general trend seems to be the demonisation of our own, and allied, troops.
I can't say I've seen any such demonisation. I've seen reports of war crimes committed by US forces, and a lot of right-wing press goons claiming that the army are being demonised by liberals. On the contrary, in the US at least the armed forces are being held up by the left as the battered, mistreated, and misused pawns of the US government. Here in the UK, there's a near-complete lack of long term coverage of anything directly to do with the Iraq war. At best any incident seems to warrant a day or two's worth of reporting and perhaps a mention in a wrap-up column or talking head show later that week. It's only because so many things happen so often in Iraq that the coverage is quite so universal.
(Oh, and before anyone starts, the acts committed by US and allied forces are war crimes, since they're committed by forces fighting terrorists. If you're going to declare a "war on terror" then any act breaching the internationally-recognised codes of military conduct undertaken while combating terrorists is a war crime.)
I don't know the truth of the incident, despite the reports I've read; but I refuse to judge a situation based solely on trial by tabloid.
While I appreciate that's just a turn of phrase you're using, I'd like to register my dislike of the phrase "trial by tabloid" being used to describe the BBC, which maintains perhaps the least tabloid-esque news service available on British television at present.
PD - Brother Farael of the Ordo Dictum Dominus
EOS - Some Raggard Scum, previously Some Arimin Scum
6P - System creator (now retired), Andrei Treune of Clan Suner (for the moment)
RL - Will Robinson
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Devil's Advocate
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Binidj (6/2/2006)
Tart (6/2/2006)
You feel sympathy for people killing civilians? Interesting, please explain why?
I feel sympathy for a group of soldiers who have just seen one of their comrades being killed (as explained in this Times Online article) by a people who have just been freed from an appalling dictatorship and who's gratitude seemed to last about a week.
So you see what you did there? You've lumped every single person in iraq (not all of whom attack marines or resent their prescense) and the few freedom fighters into one basket there.
Well done.
Is it really that fucking difficult to see the difference?
As for your "Trial by tabloid" comment, do you really see the BBC, the Times, the Gaurdian et al as tabloids?
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Wag
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| Our Gov't made up a spurious excuse to go into Iraq in the first place, now they can't come up with a good one to get out and God forbid that one of them should put Human lives or even the dignity of the British Gov't before their career and admit that they were wrong. Until we stop choosing our politicians from the weasels and rats in out society we'll always have Iraq's going on, the press will continue to give coverage as directed by media moguls (and other capitalists) and generally speaking everything will continue in it's usual corrupt fashion. Maybe we should appoint regional representatives as a random selection- like jury service, and then if your selected and really don't want to or can't do it you turn it down, if we offered the sort of salary we currently offer to MP's we shouldn't have much problem with refusals. At least then it would be representative and not a career choice.
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Devil's Advocate
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Andy, you cynical thing you. You'll be claiming it has nothing to do with either a) WMD or b) the war on Terror next...
as for involuntary politicians, a fine idea. Though personally I think in this day and age on computerisation you could have a much better attempt at a more representative sample. Say 10,000 random people appointed at any one time, all using PC's to research and vote on issues?
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Heroic Knight
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Tart (6/6/2006)
So you see what you did there? You've lumped every single person in iraq (not all of whom attack marines or resent their prescense) and the few freedom fighters into one basket there.
Nice straw man there, sadly for you I'm not going to be distracted by it.These soldiers had just been attacked, I feel a great deal of sympathy for somebody who's just seen one of their mates killed and (at least) one other wounded. I can see how, in that situation, one's thinking may not be exactly calm. Tart (6/6/2006)
As for your "Trial by tabloid" comment, do you really see the BBC, the Times, the Gaurdian et al as tabloids?
As was suggested in an earlier post, it was an expression, nothing more.I'll revise it to "Trial by media" ... is that better?
"When I want your opinion, I'll read it from your steaming entrails"
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