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Wag
 
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Obviously choosing not to have kids is a personal decision and as Kol said no one should ever be pressured into it- Christ I spend half my life trying to convince teenagers not to succumb to peer pressure.
To deprive someone of what is despite anything you say to the contrary a normal and for many necessary part of life, when we have the means to help them achieve it, yet offering a whole range of other equally non essential (as in life threatening) medical services, nor charging patients with effectively self inflicted conditions ( the rise in self inflicted/dietary diebetes in this country is astounding), seems to me to be non sensical and possibly prejudiced.
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Prodigal
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Er, I was asking you to answer this question: what is the difference between forcing fertile couples to adopt, and forcing infertile to adopt (rather than funding them to have there own children)? I'm getting very bored of your accusation that I want to force anyone to do anything.
By removing funding, you are effectively forcing infertile couples to adopt (presuming they are going to have a child one way or the other). why doesn't this same method of your "win win" situation to solve the adoption shortfall not apply to fertile couples? I already said more people should consider adoption.
There clearly is a difference, as stated by me (i spoke of early bonding/impression of young babies with parents) and by Andy. You have ignored this, rather than attempt to counter.
I answered this several posts ago. To recap, I believe there are two differences; biological and societal. We already overcome biology in lots of ways, every day. You dont accept the existence of societal pressures. Obviously the kids who need specialist care should get it, but surely not every child in care is a victim of abuse? I really hope not.
**EDIT**
a quick google search shows the average age of an adopted child to be 4.5years old.
Are you seriously claiming that is the same as raising a child from birth?
**** How would you know? Have you done either?
You will note I have already covered this. I am not comfortable giving you links. Of course, you can choose to accuse me of making it up, but I think you know I'm not.
How can i know one way or the other? I had assumed that people publishing their experiences online, would mean they were public domain.[/quote]
Not entirely. I am showing consideration to other people on those forums by not directing you there.
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Prodigal
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Andy Rimmer (9/22/2006)
Obviously choosing not to have kids is a personal decision and as Kol said no one should ever be pressured into it- Christ I spend half my life trying to convince teenagers not to succumb to peer pressure. Good for you, kids should learn to think for themselves.
To deprive someone of what is despite anything you say to the contrary a normal and for many necessary part of life, when we have the means to help them achieve it, yet offering a whole range of other equally non essential (as in life threatening) medical services, nor charging patients with effectively self inflicted conditions ( the rise in self inflicted/dietary diebetes in this country is astounding), seems to me to be non sensical and possibly prejudiced. I think I already covered this by mentioning smoking? The black and white difference I can see is that no-one dies from not having a baby.
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Devil's Advocate
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I already said more people should consider adoption.
But are people who want kids, but don't adopt, being selfish? (as you imply infertile couples who would rather have their own kids are)
Obviously the kids who need specialist care should get it, but surely not every child in care is a victim of abuse? I really hope not.
what would you call being abondonned by the one person who is supposed to care you? Hardly seems like a great start to life to me, and I'm guessing it might, just might, impact on that childs pesonality and behaviour.
however, I'm too lazy to search for examples, so i'll let this point drop having stated it.
**EDIT**
a quick google search shows the average age of an adopted child to be 4.5years old.
Are you seriously claiming that is the same as raising a child from birth?
****
How would you know? Have you done either?
I assume you are being obtuse on purpose?
There is an obvious difference here. YOU HAVE MISSED THE FIRST 4.5 YEARS OF IT'S LIFE.
are you denying this has no bearing?
Not entirely. I am showing consideration to other people on those forums by not directing you there.
Then I say your "evidence" is null and void.
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Wag
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The black and white difference I can see is that no-one dies from not having a baby. In a way yes they do die from not having children. If you have a child then in a way you continue to live on in this world after you die via them. Not just your genetic code passing on, but the child will remember you and carry that memory on. If I died with no offspring then thats me gone, completely. God I do have some hippy thoughts. 
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Devil's Advocate
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If I died with no offspring then thats me gone, completely.
God I do have some hippy thoughts.
but like, dude, you could totally live on in all the other hearts and minds of the all the other unique and special individuals your soul has like, totally touched, man.
but yeh, i agree.
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
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Prodigal
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| Tart, what precisely is the point of answering your questions? It seems that if you dont like the answer you simply ask again. 1. 'Selfishness'. I have *never* said that I think it is selfish to have children of your own. I have *never* said it is selfish not to adopt, just that it should be considered as an alternative. I have no idea why you have accused me of thinking that, apart from a theory that you are being argumentative for the sake of it. It is however selfish to expect the NHS to pay for infertility treatment when it can barely afford life saving treatment. Nor do I believe that there is a shortage of people in this country or in the world. If we had a shortage of babies, then I might have a different view of the NHS paying for fertility treatment. 2. Adoption. I have now answered the question about the difference between adopting and having your own twice. Stop asking me because the answer isnt changing. 3. Societal pressure to have children. It exists. I and a lot of other people have experienced it. No-one else seems to doubt this, or perhaps you are simply being argumentative for the sake of it. I am not directing you to members only forums to win an argument on an LRP board. **EDIT** Yes, I'm being snippy. Because I've had enough of being forced to repeat myself and being accused of holding views I've never said I hold. There's only so much of that a person can take. I'm not commenting on adoption or fertility treatment any more, because I've made my position clear, repeatedly and I dont believe there is any mileage in saying any of it again. If the debate moves onto other elements of the subject, I may be back.
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Initiate
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| I have to admit to following this thread with great interest but have refrained from posting until now. this is my first post here and probably a sign of how incensed this has made me. How DARE anyone ever say that society does not put pressure on people (women) especially to have a baby!. I have to live with this daily and I regularly get given varying amounts of patronising little comments from people who assume that becuase I don't have children and don't want to have children (am now in my mid 30's and still haven't changed my mind thank you very much). Yes there are many forums etc for people to talk about this and the reason youi probably can't find them Tart is that they are closed communities and you can only join them after being vouched for by a current member. They are designed to be safe, non-judgemental places for people (mainly) women to talk about anything and everything with other like-minded people without having to justify anything they have decided to do with their bodies. Flame me for this - I really don't care.
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