Rule7 Forums
Home       Members    Calendar    Who's On
Welcome Guest ( Login | Register )
        


«««12345

Dumbing Down Sucks!!!!!!!!! Expand / Collapse
Author
Message
Posted Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:54 PM


and Minimeister

and Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeister

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:31 AM
Posts: 960, Visits: 1,402
Andy Rimmer (6/7/2006)
Sorry Jenko, I didn't think that you were suggesting any such thing- I was simply offering a balanced point of view, however I see very little cheating in simplistic or rules light systems.

As a theoretical rules lawyer, , I note that there are several types of system:

1. Simple, crude.  These are systems where "hard skills" are prevalent and "soft skills" are often "looked down upon" or non-existent.

2. Complicated, crude.  These systems generally seem to represent a reaction to the type 1 system.  They have lots of soft skills, in some cases, soft skills for everything and aim to "level the playing field" by making sure you spend your points to do _anything_.  As a consequence they often involve lots of numbers which make it hard to keep track of everything without an external measuring device such as cards, or battleboards.  An example of this from my personal experience would be LT or CP (where you can't use a sword at all unless you've paid 1/10th of your character points).

3. Complicated, refined.  Typically these have "evolved" from type 2 systems and allow you to do anything that your "hard skills" will allow you to.  They also have "soft skills" that allow you to enhance your "hard skills" and have in game effects that would not normally be possible, e.g. magic.  I tend to prefer these systems because they present a wider scope of play for me personally then I find in either type 1 or type 2 systems.  An example of this from my personal experience would be GD or PD (everyone can do anything that they can do, although they won't do it as well as someone who's invested IC expenditure in it).

Logically there should be a 4th case which should be:

4. Simple, refined (?).  I'm currently unsure what form this system would take.  I suspect a definite move to minimise OOC concepts would be part of it.

Thus the change from so called "maths heavy" to "maths-lite" systems _isn't_ "dumbing down", i.e. catering to the lowest common denominator, it's progressively advanced system design.  I _believe_ it was Einstein who said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." Something that prospective and current games designers should perhaps bear in mind.

As for cheating, well, it's possible in all systems.  I haven't devoted as much thought to types of cheating because frankly I _hate_ cheating.  The people who do it have different reasons, some can't bear to lose, others have thoughts about drama, I find it reprehensible in all cases.  The way they do it can differ as well, from the simplest just not counting hits on the hand (because that's the way they've always played it) to the rather more expensive and logistically sophisticated method of simply ordering money phys reps from game suppliers. 

edit oopsie, got carried away and forgot the important bit! 


There is only overconfidence and terror.
Post #2049
Posted Friday, June 16, 2006 12:17 AM


Champion

ChampionChampionChampionChampionChampionChampionChampionChampion

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Today @ 6:04 PM
Posts: 282, Visits: 1,119
Putting a slant on this question; can you have a complex system without complexity?
And; does the size and frequency of the game limit the complexity potential?

e.g. Labyrinthe at 18 hours a weekend every weekend vs say, Maelstrom at 13 days per years

Hmm from that - does the setting control the system complexity?


Matt Pennington (4/26/2007)
But I do think LRP is a hobby best enjoyed in a positive state of mind.
If you approach a game with a positive attitude then you're more likely to enjoy yourself there.
Post #3219
Posted Monday, July 03, 2006 9:14 AM
Squire

SquireSquireSquireSquireSquireSquireSquireSquire

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:06 PM
Posts: 39, Visits: 99
<snip>...there should be a 4th case which should be:

4. Simple, refined (?).  I'm currently unsure what form this system would take.  I suspect a definite move to minimise OOC concepts would be part of it.

There is - it's the one you've listed as 'simple, crude', it being a realisation of the difference between roleplay and statsplay and a reduction of the game skillset to the bare minimum.

___________________________

You gotta burn to grow!

Post #5075
Posted Monday, July 03, 2006 11:15 AM
Heroic Knight

Heroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic Knight

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:37 PM
Posts: 185, Visits: 626
Simple, refined would probably be the same as simple, crude, but with the refining being in finding players that actually have the hard skills (or close enough to suspend disbelief) to play the characters you want.
Post #5091
Posted Monday, July 03, 2006 12:02 PM
Heroic Knight

Heroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic KnightHeroic Knight

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:02 PM
Posts: 206, Visits: 644
An excellent example of what Kessboy just said would be a small invite-only game several of us attended up in the Peak District the other week.  It was almost entirely hard-skill (the only soft skills being in the form of stickers with coded messages attached to some items, which players with the appropriate knowledge skill could decipher using crib-sheets stuck discretely into an IC notebook).  The basic character ideas were written first, and then players were chosen based on who had the best set of hard skills and abilities to portray that character.

Using the paradigms outlined above, the "complicated" rules sets seem to become refined by developing the rules and stats to enable smoother interactions, while the "simple" models instead base their refinements on the players and how they interact.  Personally, I would rather the focus of LRP development be on the latter rather than the former - another reason why I prefer simple rules sets for the kind of games I want to play.

                                                                                              
No spoken or written word can ever be a substitute for one's own practical experience.  No-one too can convince another who does not wish to believe what he is told - only the doubter loses by his incredulity - T.C. Lethbridge
Post #5097
Posted Monday, July 10, 2006 5:21 AM


and Minimeister

and Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeisterand Minimeister

Group: Basic Members
Last Login: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:31 AM
Posts: 960, Visits: 1,402
kessboy (7/3/2006)
Simple, refined would probably be the same as simple, crude, but with the refining being in finding players that actually have the hard skills (or close enough to suspend disbelief) to play the characters you want.


So the difference is that the players' approaches change rather than the system? Intriguing. I feel that it is unfair to characterise a game with a more complex system as "statsplay". Sometimes these refinements are needed to allow modern day, fantasy and horror games to take place. I personally don't think I'd enjoy "Low Fantasy" "Hard skills only" because it seems to lend itself to the "Dragonbane/Re-enactor" style of "LARP purism" and I'm not entirely keen on the idea of defecating in bushes and wiping my bum with stinging nettles.

*edited for work viewing purposes


There is only overconfidence and terror.
Post #5700
« Prev Topic | Next Topic »

«««12345

Permissions Expand / Collapse

All times are GMT, Time now is 6:22pm

Powered by InstantForum.NET v4.1.4 © 2008
Execution: 0.330. 9 queries. Compression Disabled.