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Prodigal
 
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balor (8/11/2006)
However, these aspects were all integral in the initial thesis, as presented by the original poster, when he stated what sci fi is in his opinion. Attwood does not discuss anything to do with the 'how', save in the respect that she discusses the 'how' society can turn into a chauvanist state from the supposedly liberal democracy we have now, yet it Handmaid's Tale is science fiction by many definitions even if she herself denies it. Yes. I'm almost inclined to say that we should call it sci-fi if there's any chance of thereby annoying Atwood, who has made some ridiculous comments about sci-fi before now. 'Oryx and Crake' really annoys me, because although it has its moments, Atwood and many of its readers mistakenly believe that it contains lots of revolutionary new ideas. If she'd been brave enough to read around sci-fi before she wrote the book, she would have realised that many of the things she brings up are actually ideas which have been floating around for decades. If she'd known that, then maybe she could have developed them into something a bit more thought-provoking. I'd say that 'Handmaid's Tale' focuses to some degree on the political and sociological 'how' (how women were deprived of power, and how many people came to believe that this was a good idea)- although I personally would have preferred if this aspect got more attention in the book than it does. It also touches on the scientific 'how'- the mass infertility in the book is caused by radiation, not the Evil Eye, and it shows how technology like credit cards was useful in helping to deprive women of their freedom. So in a way, the events of the plot are largely caused by the consequences of the fictional use of technology (fictional in the sense that, although nuclear bombs and credit cards are real, no one has yet used them in quite the same way, on quite the same scale, as they are used in the book). So on balance, I guess I'd say it's sci-fi by my definition, because it's speculation on the consequences of the use of technology, in a way which is congruent with real physics- even though the main character barely ever interacts with technology directly. balor (8/11/2006)
I suppose it comes down to defitions. Semantics. Well, yes- but by discussing semantics, I think we can gain a better understanding of the topic, even if we don't necessarily end up with matching definitions of the word 'sci-fi' (I'd like it if we did, because I like things to be neat- but I think I know when not to be overly optimistic  ).
WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.
OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
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Wag
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As in any academic research, the first thing you need to establish are your definitions. Once you have established them, the rest is far easier - even if others argue with the meanings you give, they can rarely argue with your hypothesis in the context of the definitions you give.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
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I do talk a good fight
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To be fair to Atwood, she's quite willing to admit that Oryx & Crake and The Handmaid's Tale are SF:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/fridayreview/story/0,12102,1507718,00.html
I've not read O&C yet so can't really comment on whether its ideas are innovative (SFnally) or not. It's in the house, on my "to read" list, though.
Right, proper SF. I think I defined this at the end of this thread:
http://www.pagga.net/cgi-bin/vBulletin_v3/showthread.php?t=12143&page=2&highlight=hard
(These days I would add "Naturalistic SF" to include the new Battlestar Galactica, & Firefly -- it's more character-driven, post-Sopranos SF, with none of the flashiness of Space Opera but without the scientific focus of Hard SF -- it doesn't necessarily have to pay more than lip service to real science.)
I don't believe that Hard SF would be fun as an LRP event. Too hard to phys rep, and given that the plot tends to rely closely on detailed scientific conundra, too hard to set up & plot. That's what I would think of as "proper SF." The more proper your SF, the more science-driven your plot, the less fun the game... in my opinion. Despite that it's perfect for books; I'd almost always rather read a hard SF novel than any other SF novel, and there are very few fantasy novels I enjoy. But fantasy and "soft" SF of whatever type makes the most enjoyable games, I reckon.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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Prodigal
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Ian Sturrock (8/11/2006)
To be fair to Atwood, she's quite willing to admit that Oryx & Crake and The Handmaid's Tale are SF:  I'm very happy to see that my information's out of date- she used to have this thing about saying in interviews that her work was speculative fiction but not sci-fi, because sci-fi is that silly thing involving robots and exploding spaceships- for associated ranting, see http://urchin.earth.li/cgi-bin/twic/wiki/view.pl?page=MargaretAtwoodVsSF Ian Sturrock (8/11/2006)
I've not read O&C yet so can't really comment on whether its ideas are innovative (SFnally) or not. It's in the house, on my "to read" list, though. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I don't think O&C really worked, SFwise- she brought up a lot of important technology-related issues (global warming, genetic engineering, internet childporn), but it often didn't really feel like she had anything very interesting to say about them. I also found it very irritating that she describes a world where art seems to have been virtually forgotten- hardly anyone reads, goes to plays or listens to music, the classics are ignored, all because everyone's obsessed with science and/or pornography. I can just about understand why she's worried that science has a higher status than the humanities in the education system, or that kids might be getting into net porn rather than books, but this aspect of the book came across as really unconvincing. The bit about genetically engineering humans had also a couple of bits that didn't make any sense. Having said that, there are some good bits, particularly when the protagonist is in a cynical mood, and Atwood makes some controversial but interesting points about the global sex trade. Overall, it's probably worth a look. In general I agree with those definitions, except that I wouldn't use the word 'sci-fi' to mean "a dumbed-down, TV & movie version of SF"- if I mean that something is bad science fiction, I'll call it "dumbed-down sci-fi", but I don't see the word itself as a perjorative. I'm also kind of depressed by the idea that space opera is "characterised by a tendency to ignore or misunderstand/misuse science"- admittedly, I can't think of any examples of SF involving Space Dynasties and the Clash of Galactic Empires which are particularly accurate, but I cling to the hope that such a thing is possible.
Ian Sturrock (8/11/2006)
I don't believe that Hard SF would be fun as an LRP event. Too hard to phys rep, and given that the plot tends to rely closely on detailed scientific conundra, too hard to set up & plot. That's what I would think of as "proper SF." The more proper your SF, the more science-driven your plot, the less fun the game... in my opinion. Despite that it's perfect for books; I'd almost always rather read a hard SF novel than any other SF novel, and there are very few fantasy novels I enjoy. But fantasy and "soft" SF of whatever type makes the most enjoyable games, I reckon. I haven't done enough SF larp to be certain, but this sounds plausible.
WARNING: the information above may have been subjected to dangerously high levels of ignorance.
OOC (and on Pagga): Carrie
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Wag
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| I do agree with Ian that 'hard sci fi' is almost impossible to do in LRP really well. Consider the closest cinematic example of 'hard sci fi', the film of 2001. Its pretty, its well made, there are a lot of really neat science concepts, the physics of space all make sense in the real world context. However, for a film, not a lot really happens. Most of the 'interesting stuff' from the point of view of the average film goer happens right at the end. Now, imagine an event where you attempt to recreate the plot of 2001... Ok, the average drunken LRPer may just about be able to manage to act like a maddened ape so the first scene is probably easy enough but all the rest of it? The whole 'ballet in space' bit? The 'travelling through the monolith 60's bad drug trip'? Ok you can put on a lava lamp and a smoke machine but it is really not the same What may be possible, however, is sci fi which follows as close as possible real world science with little or no flange. So, no warp engines or wormholes - it takes months or years to get anywhere because you cannot break the speed of light and anywhere significant beyond the solar system is unreachable without generation ships - gravity is induced by spinning, and so on. Forget the high concept science but instead focus on the character driven drama of characters in deep space. Possibly the staff of a space station or mining operation base on Mars or one of the moons of one of the outer planets.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Whispering God is your friend... trust the Whispering God... Ruins of Empire 1st - 3rd Feb, 2008, Gladstone scout centre, Chester
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I do talk a good fight
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balor (8/13/2006)
What may be possible, however, is sci fi which follows as close as possible real world science with little or no flange. So, no warp engines or wormholes - it takes months or years to get anywhere because you cannot break the speed of light and anywhere significant beyond thesolar system is unreachable without generation ships- gravity is induced by spinning, and so on. Forget the high concept science but instead focus on the character driven drama of characters in deep space. Possibly the staff of a space station or mining operation baseon Mars or one of the moons of one of the outer planets.
To my mind, that's pretty much "naturalistic SF." I suspect the Firefly LRP works very well (and those who managed to book onto the first event seemed to agree) -- I'm hoping to make it to the 2nd event if at all possible.
You can also do some great cross-genre stuff with this, 'cos of the isolation of some of the settings -- there have been several Dr Who & Blake's 7 episodes that revolved around solving murders (or tracking down disguised aliens, androids, spies etc.) in small, isolated settings like planetary/asteroid bases or spacecraft.
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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I do talk a good fight
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Last Login: Yesterday @ 11:06 AM
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nesciomancer (8/11/2006)
In general I agree with those definitions, except that I wouldn't use the word 'sci-fi' to mean "a dumbed-down, TV & movie version of SF"- if I mean that something is bad science fiction, I'll call it "dumbed-down sci-fi", but I don't see the word itself as a perjorative.
I'm also kind of depressed by the idea that space opera is "characterised by a tendency to ignore or misunderstand/misuse science"- admittedly, I can't think of any examples of SF involving Space Dynasties and the Clash of Galactic Empires which are particularly accurate, but I cling to the hope that such a thing is possible.
I think some of Alastair Reynolds' work verges on Space Opera, as does some of David Brin's. Still, I'd call that Hard SF anyway, because I think those elements are more prevalent -- I think both of them demonstrate that it is possible to do "hard SF space opera," just difficult. Space opera almost demands cheap, easy FTL, because without that you can't have Galactic Empires. And once you have cheap, easy FTL, you might as well throw the rest of the science out of the window too. It takes a very determined author to do hard SF space opera (I figured out a way to do it without any FTL at all, dodgy or otherwise, but you'll have to wait for the novel for that).
"Sci fi" -- yeah, you're probably right, I should have said "skiffy."
http://www.hyboriantales.com
PD: Ghostdance ("The most irritating curse I've ever encountered" -- NPC played by H.)
Riftworld: Rossar Kuug ("Clearly mad, because he thinks he's a Com-Trow Skirmisher" - Aela)
Hyborian Tales: Crew, cook, dogsbody, general labourer, toilet cleaner ("Dangerously overoptimistic ref" -- Tom Nowell)
Otherwise usually crew ("Quite spry & fit, & willing to wear a big costume & run around a lot" -- various event organisers)
"My other oversized foam weapon is THE LORD" -- Questionable Content
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